Project Delivery

This message has been cross posted to the following Discussion Forums: Project Delivery and Practice Management Member Conversations .
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many years ago, I used to be in business with a cost consultant (who still has a good rep in the business) and she didn't know anything about how contracts were developed, how construction was phased or how construction actually happened.  Your cost consultant doesn't necessarily know what goes into the numbers.  The cost consultant most likely has paid no attention to what you actually drew on the drawings.  And even if the cost consultant has worked with you, that knowledge will most likely not be reflected in their numbers.  (I had one drawn out discussion: "you show $95/ sq ft for curtain wall -- none of our projects have come in less than $135 for curtain wall, so why is this your price?"  "well, that's what it should be" )
Dog your cost consultant.  they may not be plugged in.  They may not actually know anything about construction at all.

------------------------------------------
Anne Whitacre
Principal
Whitacre Ink
Seattle WA
-------------------------------------------

I am a "Pre-Con" Architect, and have been in about every role in Architecture and Construction.  I believe that your VE/Cost Consultant did a very poor job of defining the difference in the pricing.  I always refer to scope as a variable; rarely do construction types and Architects look at the scope in the same way.

With storefront, does it include installation, caulking, Sill-pan construction and placement, how high is the installation, how much is involved...?  We have evolved our specifications to clarify many of the issues that arise daily. 

Communication is key!

David

-------------------------------------------
David Bockian
Senior Vice President - Pre-construction
Design Constructors, Inc.
Nashville TN
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 12-13-2010 01:24
From: Anne Whitacre
Subject: "value engineering" in quotes

This message has been cross posted to the following Discussion Forums: Project Delivery and Practice Management Member Conversations .
-------------------------------------------
many years ago, I used to be in business with a cost consultant (who still has a good rep in the business) and she didn't know anything about how contracts were developed, how construction was phased or how construction actually happened.  Your cost consultant doesn't necessarily know what goes into the numbers.  The cost consultant most likely has paid no attention to what you actually drew on the drawings.  And even if the cost consultant has worked with you, that knowledge will most likely not be reflected in their numbers.  (I had one drawn out discussion: "you show $95/ sq ft for curtain wall -- none of our projects have come in less than $135 for curtain wall, so why is this your price?"  "well, that's what it should be" )
Dog your cost consultant.  they may not be plugged in.  They may not actually know anything about construction at all.

------------------------------------------
Anne Whitacre
Principal
Whitacre Ink
Seattle WA
-------------------------------------------

Value engineering is, as was said before, an effort to reduce in cost various elements of the construction and still get a final product that may not be the ulltimate in the Architect's eyes but acceptable to the Owner. In my opinion, as one being part of every facet of this profession at one time or another in my career, it is the reponsibility of the Architect to understand the difference between custom and Off the shelf, between constructing a stone facade or doing EIFS and you can go on and on. Working for developers for much of my career has helped me to understand the relative costs of building materials and systems better. I have worked with Estimators and Contractors, who just give out their sets of drawings to their subs, and have found that many times they just do not look at things the same way we do as architects. Contractors are not always design friendly and manytimes taking a tally of all the potential Change Orders on a project is one of the first things that is done. We profesionals need to understand labor/material issues as well as we can when working with these entities. The concept of "scope" is so important and which must be clear at the outset of any Value engineering endeavor.  I guess the closer one gets to the actual construction of a project, the better you get at this. Also being open to alternatives is advantageous to your Owner.

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Paul A. Mendolia
Paul A. Mendolia, RA - Architectural Services
Bronx, NY

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Original Message:
Sent: 12-14-2010 08:35
From: David Bockian
Subject: "value engineering" in quotes

I am a "Pre-Con" Architect, and have been in about every role in Architecture and Construction.  I believe that your VE/Cost Consultant did a very poor job of defining the difference in the pricing.  I always refer to scope as a variable; rarely do construction types and Architects look at the scope in the same way.

With storefront, does it include installation, caulking, Sill-pan construction and placement, how high is the installation, how much is involved...?  We have evolved our specifications to clarify many of the issues that arise daily. 

Communication is key!

David

-------------------------------------------
David Bockian
Senior Vice President - Pre-construction
Design Constructors, Inc.
Nashville TN
-------------------------------------------

VE/Cost Consultants are only valuable if they understand the full implications of the cost numbers they provide or evaluate. That is, they must understand why the costs are the way they are, and what it will take to change them. For example, in the case of a curtain wall system, is the price being driven by the size of the opening, the wind loads at the subject site, the type of glazing, the height of the building (and therefore the nature of the erection equipment required), the finish of the metal, the number of fabricators capable of meeting the specs, the availability of qualified erectors, the applicable union rules, etc. 

VA/VE is different from cost estimating. VA/VE is not just about cost.

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Michael Adams AIA
Principal
Enlign Consultants
Fort Collins CO
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Original Message:
Sent: 12-26-2010 11:43
From: Eliot Goldstein
Subject: "value engineering" in quotes

VE/Cost Consultants are only valuable if they understand the full implications of the cost numbers they provide or evaluate. That is, they must understand why the costs are the way they are, and what it will take to change them. For example, in the case of a curtain wall system, is the price being driven by the size of the opening, the wind loads at the subject site, the type of glazing, the height of the building (and therefore the nature of the erection equipment required), the finish of the metal, the number of fabricators capable of meeting the specs, the availability of qualified erectors, the applicable union rules, etc. 

In that respect, the couple of summers I spent working in construction during architecture school were among the most valuable professional experiences I ever had, although I did not understand how valuable they would be at the time. Working in the field almost 35 years ago, I developed an understanding of what an architect's instructions (in the drawings or specs) mean to the worker on the site. 

Based on the above, I would recommend that architects ask the cost consultants they are considering retaining what sorts of field experience they have had, and that they limit their selection to those who understand, really understand, what goes into their numbers.

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Eliot Goldstein AIA
The Goldstein Partnership
Maplewood NJ
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Original Message:
Sent: 12-14-2010 08:35
From: David Bockian
Subject: "value engineering" in quotes

I am a "Pre-Con" Architect, and have been in about every role in Architecture and Construction.  I believe that your VE/Cost Consultant did a very poor job of defining the difference in the pricing.  I always refer to scope as a variable; rarely do construction types and Architects look at the scope in the same way.

With storefront, does it include installation, caulking, Sill-pan construction and placement, how high is the installation, how much is involved...?  We have evolved our specifications to clarify many of the issues that arise daily. 

Communication is key!

David

-------------------------------------------
David Bockian
Senior Vice President - Pre-construction
Design Constructors, Inc.
Nashville TN
-------------------------------------------

Dear Mr. Goldstein,

to your suggestion that experience on a construction site is valuable, I would go so far as to say that it should be a part of every architect's education. While I would prefer this not be a hard and fast requirement for fear of over-regulation, e.g. CES, what is there to prevent an interested and aspring architect from seeking work in construction, even upon completion of a degree?

Yet, there is much more that goes into making a good cost consultant. The training of the British quantity surveyor provides an excellent basis because he/she must also understand, measure and price work in place. It's more than just crunching numbers, but of understanding the economics of construction from the very bottom up.
 
What I see as the architectural establishment's total ignorance of construction economics is the reason it is not taken seriously by many owners and compensated accordingly.     

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Karl Hartnack AIA
Component Past President
Hartnack Architecture
40213 Dusseldorf

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Original Message:
Sent: 12-26-2010 11:43
From: Eliot Goldstein
Subject: "value engineering" in quotes

VE/Cost Consultants are only valuable if they understand the full implications of the cost numbers they provide or evaluate. That is, they must understand why the costs are the way they are, and what it will take to change them. For example, in the case of a curtain wall system, is the price being driven by the size of the opening, the wind loads at the subject site, the type of glazing, the height of the building (and therefore the nature of the erection equipment required), the finish of the metal, the number of fabricators capable of meeting the specs, the availability of qualified erectors, the applicable union rules, etc. 

In that respect, the couple of summers I spent working in construction during architecture school were among the most valuable professional experiences I ever had, although I did not understand how valuable they would be at the time. Working in the field almost 35 years ago, I developed an understanding of what an architect's instructions (in the drawings or specs) mean to the worker on the site. 

Based on the above, I would recommend that architects ask the cost consultants they are considering retaining what sorts of field experience they have had, and that they limit their selection to those who understand, really understand, what goes into their numbers.

-------------------------------------------
Eliot Goldstein AIA
The Goldstein Partnership
Maplewood NJ
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 12-14-2010 08:35
From: David Bockian
Subject: "value engineering" in quotes

I am a "Pre-Con" Architect, and have been in about every role in Architecture and Construction.  I believe that your VE/Cost Consultant did a very poor job of defining the difference in the pricing.  I always refer to scope as a variable; rarely do construction types and Architects look at the scope in the same way.

With storefront, does it include installation, caulking, Sill-pan construction and placement, how high is the installation, how much is involved...?  We have evolved our specifications to clarify many of the issues that arise daily. 

Communication is key!

David

-------------------------------------------
David Bockian
Senior Vice President - Pre-construction
Design Constructors, Inc.
Nashville TN
-------------------------------------------

The most frequently discussed topic in the construction industry is money, yet it is one that many architects, perhaps believing themselves to be carrying on in the tradition of FLLW, know or seem to care least about.
 
I don't know what is going on in architectural education, because I am not in the US and don't hire recent US grads. However, if the US system is still not addressing costs, then it is not preparing its graduates for the real world. When I was in school, the only reference to construction costs was an hour long introduction to the Means handbook. Yet in reality, I was only able to sustain my international practice because I learned not only to calculate costs, but to reliably predict and tune them to external factors. Thus cost consulting became a major part of my practice. This and the assurance that a project will be completed on budget requires an effort for which many clients are willing to pay.

Until more architects learn to deal with costs, I see increasing numbers of experienced clients turing their backs on architects in favor of contractors who then direct the activities of the architects.

-------------------------------------------
Karl Hartnack AIA
Component Past President
Hartnack Architecture
40213 Dusseldorf

-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 12-13-2010 01:24
From: Anne Whitacre
Subject: "value engineering" in quotes

This message has been cross posted to the following Discussion Forums: Project Delivery and Practice Management Member Conversations .
-------------------------------------------
many years ago, I used to be in business with a cost consultant (who still has a good rep in the business) and she didn't know anything about how contracts were developed, how construction was phased or how construction actually happened.  Your cost consultant doesn't necessarily know what goes into the numbers.  The cost consultant most likely has paid no attention to what you actually drew on the drawings.  And even if the cost consultant has worked with you, that knowledge will most likely not be reflected in their numbers.  (I had one drawn out discussion: "you show $95/ sq ft for curtain wall -- none of our projects have come in less than $135 for curtain wall, so why is this your price?"  "well, that's what it should be" )
Dog your cost consultant.  they may not be plugged in.  They may not actually know anything about construction at all.

------------------------------------------
Anne Whitacre
Principal
Whitacre Ink
Seattle WA
-------------------------------------------

Money is one of the most important concerns for anyone in the pre-occupancy phase of project delivery.  The key is to get as many of the stakeholders involved at the right time, preferably as early as possible.  It is not acceptable to ignore the issue and repeated major errors are not acceptable.  In a collaborative project environment, numerous parties should be providing realistic feedback to find and fix these types of errors. 

The other part of this could be to understand how the costs of various items are composed to find out where contingencies and waste come into play.  If that provider is convinced everything will be ready for an efficient installation, the cost will be lower, since their contingency is their risk factor represented by money.

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Christian Overbey AIA
Denver CO
http://christianoverbey.webs.com
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Original Message:
Sent: 12-14-2010 11:00
From: Karl Hartnack
Subject: "value engineering" in quotes

The most frequently discussed topic in the construction industry is money, yet it is one that many architects, perhaps believing themselves to be carrying on in the tradition of FLLW, know or seem to care least about.
 
I don't know what is going on in architectural education, because I am not in the US and don't hire recent US grads. However, if the US system is still not addressing costs, then it is not preparing its graduates for the real world. When I was in school, the only reference to construction costs was an hour long introduction to the Means handbook. Yet in reality, I was only able to sustain my international practice because I learned not only to calculate costs, but to reliably predict and tune them to external factors. Thus cost consulting became a major part of my practice. This and the assurance that a project will be completed on budget requires an effort for which many clients are willing to pay.

Until more architects learn to deal with costs, I see increasing numbers of experienced clients turing their backs on architects in favor of contractors who then direct the activities of the architects.

-------------------------------------------
Karl Hartnack AIA
Component Past President
Hartnack Architecture
40213 Dusseldorf

-------------------------------------------

I couldn't agree more that a lack of knowledge on construction costs will always put architects in the passenger (not the driver's) seat.  Cost consultant performance is theoretically an easy metric to get - how close did they come to the contractor's price? (yes, I know this is a post project evaluation, and may have already cost you dearly in reputation but better to learn after only one job)  But I say theoretically because some contractors are very ingenious people, and can easily beat the Means $$, while on the other hand industry costs are volatile and can suddenly be well above the Means $$ (anyone remember years ago when we all got "Katrina'd"?).
I'm not advocating we all become cost experts, but we should all be more "cost aware".  I have hopes that BIM, with its inherent capability to capture area and length data, will help us.  But we've also got to get out in the field/world and get our hands dirty.  Be part of a design-build team, for example.  Being a stakeholder in project delivery like that is an eye opening experience - you really see how a building comes together from the perspective of those are are responsible for building it.
And ultimately, as one responder said, communication is key.  The experience described above will just make the communication back to your cost consultant more informative, relevant and value added.

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James Rodriguez AIA
Boeing Company
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Original Message:
Sent: 12-14-2010 11:00
From: Karl Hartnack
Subject: "value engineering" in quotes

The most frequently discussed topic in the construction industry is money, yet it is one that many architects, perhaps believing themselves to be carrying on in the tradition of FLLW, know or seem to care least about.
 
I don't know what is going on in architectural education, because I am not in the US and don't hire recent US grads. However, if the US system is still not addressing costs, then it is not preparing its graduates for the real world. When I was in school, the only reference to construction costs was an hour long introduction to the Means handbook. Yet in reality, I was only able to sustain my international practice because I learned not only to calculate costs, but to reliably predict and tune them to external factors. Thus cost consulting became a major part of my practice. This and the assurance that a project will be completed on budget requires an effort for which many clients are willing to pay.

Until more architects learn to deal with costs, I see increasing numbers of experienced clients turing their backs on architects in favor of contractors who then direct the activities of the architects.

-------------------------------------------
Karl Hartnack AIA
Component Past President
Hartnack Architecture
40213 Dusseldorf

-------------------------------------------

"(I had one drawn out discussion: "you show $95/ sq ft for curtain wall -- none of our projects have come in less than $135 for curtain wall, so why is this your price?"  "well, that's what it should be" )"

'Your' cost consultant's response is childish and irresponsible at best not to mention insulting to those who have actually taken the time to read the documents and provide an estimate. She must be living in LALALA land! Cost is what it is. I believe one of the problems with "cost consultants" like 'yours' is that they are not regulated, have no equity in the project and therefor no real incentive to provide an accurate number. If they are hired by the owner and paid a flat fee (contracts may vary) to bring the costs down, then that's what they do. They can say anything they want about what the project should cost without any basis in reality whatsoever! Of course the owner sees their numbers and praises them, thus putting the architect and/ or builder back in the hot seat to justify the design/ estimate. I wonder how much time architects and builders have to waste educating/ convincing owners what their project is really going to cost because of people like this! Some cost consultants might very well be worth the price you pay for them and know what they are doing. But when I hear comments such as hers, I think they are nothing more than really good bullshit artists who tell the client what they want to hear and leave the architect and builder trying to figure out how to bring cost down to an unobtainable level.

"Of course, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong!"


-------------------------------------------
Eric Helgoth AIA
Jackson WY
-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 12-13-2010 01:24
From: Anne Whitacre
Subject: "value engineering" in quotes

This message has been cross posted to the following Discussion Forums: Project Delivery and Practice Management Member Conversations .
-------------------------------------------
many years ago, I used to be in business with a cost consultant (who still has a good rep in the business) and she didn't know anything about how contracts were developed, how construction was phased or how construction actually happened.  Your cost consultant doesn't necessarily know what goes into the numbers.  The cost consultant most likely has paid no attention to what you actually drew on the drawings.  And even if the cost consultant has worked with you, that knowledge will most likely not be reflected in their numbers.  (I had one drawn out discussion: "you show $95/ sq ft for curtain wall -- none of our projects have come in less than $135 for curtain wall, so why is this your price?"  "well, that's what it should be" )
Dog your cost consultant.  they may not be plugged in.  They may not actually know anything about construction at all.

------------------------------------------
Anne Whitacre
Principal
Whitacre Ink
Seattle WA
-------------------------------------------

The kind of response made by the cost consultant regarding the $95 curtain wall can't be taken seriously. Sounds to me as though he or she was annoyed by the question, distracted, or simply a low level or ignorant person in the organization working off of some kind of a manual and with no kind of understanding for the problem or the technology.

Still don't get the reference to value engineering.
-------------------------------------------
Karl Hartnack AIA
Component Past President
Hartnack Architecture
40213 Dusseldorf

-------------------------------------------






Original Message:
Sent: 12-14-2010 20:04
From: Eric Helgoth
Subject: "value engineering" in quotes

"(I had one drawn out discussion: "you show $95/ sq ft for curtain wall -- none of our projects have come in less than $135 for curtain wall, so why is this your price?"  "well, that's what it should be" )"

'Your' cost consultant's response is childish and irresponsible at best not to mention insulting to those who have actually taken the time to read the documents and provide an estimate. She must be living in LALALA land! Cost is what it is. I believe one of the problems with "cost consultants" like 'yours' is that they are not regulated, have no equity in the project and therefor no real incentive to provide an accurate number. If they are hired by the owner and paid a flat fee (contracts may vary) to bring the costs down, then that's what they do. They can say anything they want about what the project should cost without any basis in reality whatsoever! Of course the owner sees their numbers and praises them, thus putting the architect and/ or builder back in the hot seat to justify the design/ estimate. I wonder how much time architects and builders have to waste educating/ convincing owners what their project is really going to cost because of people like this! Some cost consultants might very well be worth the price you pay for them and know what they are doing. But when I hear comments such as hers, I think they are nothing more than really good bullshit artists who tell the client what they want to hear and leave the architect and builder trying to figure out how to bring cost down to an unobtainable level.

"Of course, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong!"


-------------------------------------------
Eric Helgoth AIA
Jackson WY
-------------------------------------------