Committee on Architecture for Education

 View Only

Community HTML

ALBION DISTRICT LIBRARY BY PERKINS + WILL IS A 2018 COTE TOP TEN RECIPIENT. IMAGE: DOUBLESPACE PHOTOGRAPHY

Quick Links

 

Who we are

The Committee on Architecture for Education (CAE) is a Knowledge Community of the American Institute of Architects (AIA). We are a large and active group of over 10,000 architects and allied professionals concerned with the quality and design of all types of educational, cultural, and recreational facilities that promote lifelong learning in safe, welcoming and equitable environments. The CAE’s mission is to foster innovative and collaborative design of educational facilities and to heighten public awareness on the importance of learning environments.

  

Back to discussion forums
Expand all | Collapse all

ICFs

  • 1.  ICFs

    Posted 07-22-2013 11:13 PM
    This message has been cross posted to the following Discussion Forums: Committee of Corporate Architects and Facility Management and Committee on Architecture for Education .
    -------------------------------------------
    Working in schematics to consider if ICF is feasible for a 55,000 sf, Higher-Ed Facility in South Ga. We feel as though we have exhausted our google search techniques. Looking for data or white papers that help sell the argument to the client. Initial cost analysis indicates there is a premium using this product; however, what are the savings? Any info or experience in these types of facilities with this type of construction is appreciated.

    Also, any info on right-sizing the HVAC System (Chiller/Boiler) for this size facility using ICFs would also be appreciated. Looking to help educate/steer mechanical consultant.

    Overall, there seems to be very little online and within product data for commercial buildings...lots on residential and even more with vendor specific info. The premium content would include third-party studies to determine feasibility in initial and ROI costs and energy savings.

    If you have experience, we would like to continue the conversation!

    thanks,
     Matt

    -------------------------------------------
    Matthew Hart Assoc. AIA
    Intern
    IPG, Incorporated
    Valdosta GA
    -------------------------------------------


  • 2.  RE:ICFs

    Posted 07-24-2013 04:55 PM
    A board member at a non-profit school for the handicapped forced us to use ICF's on their 50,000 SF school project.  The subcontractor (which he owned) who supplied and installed the ICF's had done dozens of projects.  We think it added a month to the construction time and do not plan to use it again unless, again, we are forced by the client.  The next time, if a client wants a concrete perimeter wall, I think you could tilt up site cast concrete panels, weld them together, and get a much better buildingt.  ICF has to have an exterior and interior finish over it, just like tilt ups.  Putting insulation boards on the exterior of the tilt ups is a more efficient location for the insulation and all of the thermal mass is on the interior of the insulation where it can really help condition the interior.  The speed of erection should be improved and you have no problem getting competitive pricing on it.

    ICF's just seem to be a gimmick that achieves a finished product in a very clumsy and not very efficient way.

    -------------------------------------------
    Darrel Odom AIA, LEED AP
    President
    Odom Peckham Architecture, Inc.
    Little Rock AR
    -------------------------------------------






    Original Message


  • 3.  RE:ICFs

    Posted 07-25-2013 05:24 PM
    Refresh my memory, What is ICF? 

    -------------------------------------------
    David DeFilippo AIA
    Tsoi/Kobus Associates; Cambridge, MA
    Milton MA
    -------------------------------------------






    Original Message


  • 4.  RE:ICFs

    Posted 07-26-2013 06:03 PM
    Insulated Concrete Forms.

    -------------------------------------------
    Barry Lemons AIA
    Architect
    VLK Architects, Inc.
    Fort Worth TX
    -------------------------------------------






    Original Message


  • 5.  RE:ICFs

    Posted 07-26-2013 06:23 PM
    We built 27 classroom addition buildings (one-story, 6-10 classrooms each) in 2004 and one double-height music building in 2006 using an ICF system.  The cost was equivalent to the standard CBS (Concrete Block and Stucco) system prevalent in Florida.  Schedule was also about the same as a CBS system.  The buildings are certainly solid (easily meet the hurricane wind loads required in Florida's coastal regions), quiet and energy efficient.  We never did a comparison on the energy savings, but the HVAC equipment was reduced in size based on the calculated R-value of the walls.  You are basically putting an EFIS system on the exterior insulation, so you have all of the usual problems related to the EFIS finish.  The real problems came about in the workmanship.  ICF was (at the time) basically a residential system.  Depending on the subcontractor, the walls were either straight or wavy.  The two-story height music building was a disaster due to the lack of sophistication (at the time) of the bracing system for the forms.  I understand that the bracing systems are a lot better now.  Also, while it was simple on the one-story addition buildings to have the roof extend past the walls, flashing a flat roof system into the ICF parapet wall on the music building resulted in a large change order due to the architect's lack of familiarity with the system (my guess is they got the next one right).  In summary, we have opted for tilt-up system since. 

    -------------------------------------------
    Dane Theodore AIA
    Assistant Superintendent
    School Board of Brevard County, Florida
    Melbourne FL
    -------------------------------------------






    Original Message


  • 6.  RE:ICFs

    Posted 07-28-2013 06:13 PM


    -------------------------------------------
    Edward Butcher AIA
    ESB Architecture
    Pittsford NY
    -------------------------------------------

    products needing artificial promotion to get used - usually aren't worth half the trouble they can create...

    if ICFs were such a great idea, the industry would be able to deal with flammability, exterior finish requirements,  water absorption sapping the insulative value, etc.  Deal with it technically, not with marketing hype.

    The rest of the Board should rethink why a member with a direct interest in any product should be allowed such influence...is his 'special need' to use his position - to force his system into a building type it makes little sense for?
    Most importantly - will the promoter of this system hold you harmless from all the know issues with his product?  Let him guarantee all the claims made, or continue to specify systems already proven for decades or longer.




    Original Message


  • 7.  RE:ICFs

    Posted 07-29-2013 10:34 AM
    Insulated Concrete Forms

     http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insulating_concrete_form


    -------------------------------------------
    Darrel Odom AIA, LEED AP
    President
    Odom Peckham Architecture, Inc.
    Little Rock AR
    -------------------------------------------






    Original Message


  • 8.  RE:ICFs

    Posted 07-25-2013 05:34 PM
    You need to look at the exterior rating required.  I don't believe that an ICF can meet any kind of reasonable fire protective requirments - note the video of this Russian High rise that was covered with EIFS.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-fN8KKmBbI  If you need the exterior wall to be rated, it can be an issue.

    On top of that, it is ICF is often load bearing, and in a school with an assembly use, I would have some hesitation in using that type of construction.  Also, in the event of a fire, the smoke is very toxic.

    -------------------------------------------
    Paul Wilhelms AIA
    Vice President
    HOK, Inc.
    Saint Louis MO
    -------------------------------------------






    Original Message


  • 9.  RE:ICFs

    Posted 07-26-2013 10:52 AM


    -------------------------------------------
    Kenneth Stanfield AIA
    Sherman-Carter-Barnhart Architects, PSC
    Louisville KY
    -------------------------------------------
    Since 2005, our firm has had extensive experience designing ICF school projects, including the first ICF school in Ky(Alvaton Elem.)., the first net zero energy public school in the nation(Richardsville Elem.), the five most energy efficent schools in Ky., and the largest ICF building in North America(South Warren MS/HS).  We recommend ICF's to our clients as an option to traditional load bearing masonry or steel frame w/tilt-up or pre-cast.  There are several notable advantages to selecting an ICF envelope.  The first is energy efficiency.  In my opinion, there is simply no other building system available that gives you an equivalent R value/thermal mass performance. In climate zone 4, the average school uses 73 kbtu's per sf per year.  Our ICF schools are performing at 34 kbtu's or less(Richardsville is at 18.2 kbtu's) Unfortunately, today's energy modeling software cannot accurately calculate the true performance of the ICF wall, and it took us several projects to right size the HVAC equipment and take full advantage of the inherent efficiencies.  Another advantage of ICF construction is it's ability to resist hurricane and even tornadic winds.  We all learned too recently that the typically constructed school can be vulnerable in severe storms, with tragic results. Minimal air infiltration is another area where ICF performs extremely well.  Currently, we are seeing ICF construction equal to traditional masonry in cost, so there is no premium in our area.  As for schedule, we have never experienced an ICF project to take longer to construct, in fact, we expect the opposite to occur(given an experienced contractor).  For architects unfamiliar with ICF, there is a learning curve and an investment.  Standard detail libraries have to be replaced.  As with any building system, there are always advantages and limitations.  ICF is not a silver bullit, but if you want the most energy efficient, storm resistant envelope, we feel it's certainly worth presenting for our client's consideration.  We have over 20 ICF designed buildings now in operation, so we have hard performance data to compare with typically constructed schools. 


    Original Message


  • 10.  RE:ICFs

    Posted 07-26-2013 11:11 AM
    ICF: Insulated Concrete Forms. Based on (2) School projects now completed one in PA and one NC is a very good way to go. In NC, which was the first job, there was a learning curve, but the expert subcontractor who installed them made it happen and the project opened on schedule.  In PA, it was also new to the GC who installed them, but the installed was done very well as they had utilized manuf.for QA/QC support. Not all ICF products are created equal- some are better than others which makes for better installation and less concerns for irregularities in straightness. Biggest thing is making sure contractors know that a 4'-0" lift is max.before pouring more. The other advantage is that they can be installed during cold weather as the heat of hydration keeps the concrete at the required ACI recommended temps. during curing because the exterior walls hold the heat in.

    The end result even while under construction was that the thermal performance was immediately noticed even while under temporary window protection. The buildings also were able to have HVAC equipment and lower operating cost. Smaller HVAC equipment in tonnage is less construction cost.

    The (2) projects that were done had interior bearing CMU and concrete plank floors. The one mayhave been easier to accelerated interior construction if it had been steel framed because of 3 story mechanical room.

    Waterproofing installation works fine, and the exterior building skins can be done with various materials.brick, cement board siding, metal panel, stucco. - basically treated like the outside face of a traditional cavity wall design.

    -------------------------------------------
    Carl Kanaskie AIA
    Associate
    McKissick Associates, P.C.
    Harrisburg PA
    -------------------------------------------






    Original Message