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You and Your Architect

  • 1.  You and Your Architect

    Posted 08-09-2012 08:21 PM
    This message has been cross posted to the following Discussion Forums: Small Project Practitioners and Small Firm Round Table .
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    Afternoon, Our SFRT Sub-committee is developing a series of videos whic will compliment the AIA.ORG VOTA (Value of the Architect) and YAYA (You and Your Architect) programs. We are looking to you, the members, for questions on this topic. People often ask, "What do architects do?". "Where do I find an architect?" Tell us what are the questions you most often hear. Give us your top 3 questions. The videos will focus on clarifying the role of the architect, the process of working with an architect and most importanly, the benefits of working with an architect. Thank you! Jean ------------------------------------------- Jean Dufresne AIA Architect Space Architects & Planners Chicago IL -------------------------------------------


  • 2.  RE:You and Your Architect

    Posted 08-10-2012 08:51 AM
    Jean,
    The first question I usually hear from a client is "How much will you charge me to draw up a set of plans?". Its as if I have all these "plans" in my mind and all I have to do is set them out on paper. Most are agahst when I reply" well, let me see your design". We need to educate the public on the design process....what it is, why it has to be and what it takes to document a design to the degree required to build it.

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    Thad Broom AIA
    Architect
    Thad A. Broom AIA, P.C.
    Virginia Beach VA
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    Original Message


  • 3.  RE:You and Your Architect

    Posted 08-10-2012 10:32 AM

    In addition to depicting the basics of what an architect does, I think it would be good to include what activities happen in a typical project and how much time and effort an Architect spends doing those activities, perhaps a documentary that shows the activities of a typical project from start to finish. Maybe with a running clock on the bottom of the screen counting personnel hours spent on the project. Include everything like preparing a proposal, zoning analysis, programing, design, re-design, more design, design development, structural  calculations, energy codes, green stuff, coordination, planning boards, zoning boards, environmental boards, contract docs, specifications, consultants, biding.....etc. I would watch something like that on PBS.

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    Thomas Streicher AIA
    Thomas Streicher, Architect
    Monroe NY
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    Original Message


  • 4.  RE:You and Your Architect

    Posted 08-13-2012 09:39 AM
    I completely agree with Thomas! There have been a number of good "design" related documentaries that I have seen over the years. Remember the "Pride of Place" series? There have been others that celebrate an idividual architect or building. All quite worthy, but all focused on the "art" of architecture. More times than not, upon relfection, it seems that those films do more to separate architects from the rest of society rathar than show their connectiveness to it. They tend to do more to reinfoce the concept of the architect in his ivory tower.

    A documentary more along the line that Thomas suggests would go a long way towards making architects seem more human. Showing the tials and tribulations, the victories and the frustartions, and just how hard it is sometimes to take all the different elements that have to go into a design (see the list that Thomas mentions in his message - plus more) and bring them together in a long process that ultimately comes together from a vitual fog to form a solution that meets all the disparate elements that are the constituent parts of a design. I believe most people would identify with the details of the process we go through as something that they could then relate to in their own lives, their own struggles.

    Of course it would also go a long way towards developing an understanding of what they are paying for when they hire an architect. As it is now it is a big mystery, an unkown, and fear of the unkown in one of our most basic fears.

    So the point is, educate the public about the techinical side of architecture at least as much, if not more, than the artistic side. Art, like beauty, is in the mind of the beholder. Most people realize this and therefore are not hesitant to share their version of "design" because all design is to them is "beauty" or art, and their "vision" of art is as valid as anyone elses, because it resides in the soul, not the mind.

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    Wilburn Crater AIA
    Project Architect
    Bowers, Ellis & Watson Architects, PA
    Asheville NC
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  • 5.  RE:You and Your Architect

    Posted 08-14-2012 10:12 AM
    Do exactly what Thomas said below and you've got yourself a show.  Nicely done Thomas.  If you also included regional hourly rates and fee's based on construction cost percentage rate averages that Architects charge, it would tie everything in nicely.

    The bottom line is homeowners want to know how much it will cost at the outset, and be convinced that an Architect will be worth the investment, not just another expense.  Explain what we do, but also show the long term value added.  Most homeowners only focus on the initial costs, not the return on their investment they'll see if and when they sell the home in the future.  It's difficult to quantify, and often the hardest sell for an Architect.

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    Douglas Shoop AIA
    Principal Owner
    DSA Architects
    Medford MA
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  • 6.  RE:You and Your Architect

    Posted 08-15-2012 07:23 PM
    I have found that most residential customers, Home Builders and Owners, want to know a total possible cost- up front.  So it is extreme important when mentioning hourly rates to first sit down with the client and determine what exactly the client wants and be able to give them a do-not-exceed figure.

    Even if you are pursuing a percentage of the construction cost, it is important to discuss the exact scope of the project and a do-not-exceed figure.  If one allows the client to get in way over the heads and the project comes in at 1.5x the original estimate, that's 1.5x what the Homeowner anticipated paying and it produces a very unhappy client.  Many may accept the project cost overrun, but find the extra unanticipated fee a tough pill to swallow. 


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    D. Cook AIA
    Tipp City OH
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  • 7.  Documentary

    Posted 08-15-2012 02:30 PM
    I am not sure it is allowed to list or recommend hourly rates or fees. 

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    Heidrun Hoppe AIA
    Heidrun Hoppe Associates, Inc
    Evanston IL
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  • 8.  RE:You and Your Architect

    Posted 08-16-2012 01:31 PM
    Does anyone recall watching the 1989 multi part PBS series on David Childs of SOM building One Worldwide Plaza? It was a great walk through the entire process, granted, on a public building.

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    Kathleen Simpson
    Manager, Knowledge Communities
    The American Institute of Architects
    Washington DC
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  • 9.  RE:You and Your Architect

    Posted 08-13-2012 10:24 AM
    I think the timeline on the bottom of the screen showing people how much time is put into each part of the project as it is shown on the video is a great idea.  People will understand how much work, research, rework, administration, etc. is done that they never get to see.  I also think that under all of their questions there is one big question that is often the elephant in the room for them: "Is hiring an architect financially a good decision?"  "Will I get a financial return on my investment by hiring an architect?"  "Will I lose money by hiring an architect when I finally sell the property?"  "Will I make more money when I sell the property because I hired an architect?"  "What are the statistics on that?"  "Show me the money" is what they politely do not ask, but it is almost always on their mind.  

    I'm not sure what the origin of this proposed video is, but it seems to me that those who are most in need of the information that you are proposing to give in the video are people who are doing small commercial projects and residences.  In larger projects, the question doesn't need to be asked because the client has their own professionals who explain everything to them.  It's the clients on small projects who really need this information.  Hopefully small project and residential clients will be the target viewers of this video.



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    Michael Gustavson
    Intern
    Madison WI
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    Original Message


  • 10.  RE:You and Your Architect

    Posted 08-14-2012 08:08 PM

    The basic problem with the timeline scenario is that the value of participants varies due to the different parts of the project that is being worked on and the individuals experience which is being employed toward the solution or contribution toward the solution.  Also, the value of participants is a great variable and in some cases not measurable.  A design architects value, for instance, cannot be measured in dollars per hour.  The inspiration cannot be measured that way, only the results of his/her effort can be seen but it cannot be measured unless the design philosophy dictates that, as with a spec house.  There are so many variables at that stage of the process that only the client can make the true measure of the design efforts' value by gauging the success of the result.

    Another important measure of the values of time consumed on a project is, as we all know, the knowledge, experience and intellect of the individual contributor.  It certainly takes a newbie a lot longer to research code implications of project design proposals than it does an old timer who was around when the code issues were being developed.  One can do it in 15 minutes because he/she knows were to look versus the other taking a day and a half to do the same and include written backup of the conclusions.

    I know this is not contributive but it is constructive in that it defines the problem of putting a value on creativity.
    It also must be appreciated to have any value at all by someone other than the originator.

    Some account must also be made for the value of an architect in the taking of legal responsibility of all the facets of the permitted design. 

    This is all a deep and engrossing subject, an aged one to say the least, and I feel that it will all pare down to the necessity to show that the architect is just a next door person and not some ego pumping artist with no though of being accountable or responsible.

    There are a lot of good ad agencies with their own creative spirits aboard who can sell this.

    God bless all,    Bob
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    Robert Morris AIA
    Canterbury CT
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  • 11.  RE:You and Your Architect

    Posted 08-15-2012 10:37 AM
    certainly the timeline approach is an eye-catching and informative device, and the actual display mechanism need not be overly "technical" (... being essentially a demonstrative representation), and as for the valuation of the qualitative "intangibles" i am reminded of and paraphrase an oft seen credit card commercial, "... embodied knowledge, experience and creativity: priceless".

    s.t.

    ("Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted." -- Albert Einstein)



    Original Message


  • 12.  RE:You and Your Architect

    Posted 08-29-2012 04:18 PM
    I think the concept of the AIA making 30sec, 90 sec and 270 second versions of an online video on "How architects add value" would be an extraordinary idea. The cost could be $30,000 or less and should be completely generic so that every architect can include a link to the selected video in their pitch to a new homeowner in addition to whatever marketing materials they would normally send. To justify the cost to the AIA membership, the video could end with the message "To find an AIA architect visit....". This would 1) increase education among consumers, 2) assist member firms with a marketing program too expensive for small firms to afford 3) help increase value (and therefore membership) in the AIA, which in turn would give the organization more strength in lobbying and education efforts in the future--the virtuous circle.

    I sure hope that the AIA is monitoring these discussions as that organization, given the degree of loss and pain suffered by the industry in the last five years, needs to be working leaner and smarter than ever. Every program must be measured against the metric of "How will this expenditure assist or membership be more successful and profitable?".

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    Ross Cann AIA, LEED AP
    Senior Architect
    A4 Architecture + Planning
    Newport RI
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  • 13.  RE:You and Your Architect

    Posted 08-17-2012 11:21 AM
    I like the idea and the discussion in general however; I'm watching this post creep more and more toward "residential" or "homeowner".  That would immediatly limit its scope and I doubt my small firm would/could use it.  I vote for small projects, anything in the range of $10m and below including housing.  This would essentially eliminate the big firm/big project/sophisitcated client/ award winning/published project mentality and get things onto the level necessary for the less sophisticated client.  That client base should be the target.

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    Robin Miller AIA
    MSH Architects
    Sioux Falls SD
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  • 14.  RE:You and Your Architect

    Posted 08-17-2012 06:14 PM
    Hi Ross
    First - rest assured that the AIA does participate in the conversations on line - to some degree at the staff level, but primarily at the membership level - that after all is which is where the AIA leadership is, since the AIA is led by architect members just like you who volunteer to serve in various capacities at local, regional and national level.  In other words, it's US!

    There are a number of AIA communications initiatives that are connecting the profession of architecture more directly with the public at large - including some Television programs which feature both architects, and architecture.  

    The primary initiative though that really has the potential to reach a new paradigm is the Repositioning effort.  We have gathered HARD DATA  (beyond the anecdotes that we've been bantering about for years) - so far touching directly over 13,000 people ranging from architects, potential architectural clients; architect allies, AIA members and non-AIA members; Intern Architects and Architectural fans.  The hypothesis that are emerging are eye opening.  

    I am convinced that this initiative has gathered enough momentum and synergy to lead the entire profession to a new paradigm in the coming year.  It won't be a magic bullet - much of what we are finding we already knew - but there is a deep and widespread commitment at all levels of the AIA to ACT; and we when act in concert, we are present in every community in this country and can have a huge impact over time.  

    I encourage you to follow and participate in this effort; more information on where we are, and where we are going is here:

    http://www.aia.org/about/repositioning/index.htm

    Cheers


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    Michael Malinowski AIA
    AIA Director - California Region
    Applied Architecture, Inc.
    Sacramento CA
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    Original Message


  • 15.  RE:You and Your Architect

    Posted 08-13-2012 10:43 AM
    I think I would rather you asked them, "What are you trying to accomplish?" than, "Let me see your design?"

    One of the things I spend a lot of time explaining to clients is that the architect does the design. Otherwise, we aren't architects - we are providers of drafting services.

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    Kate Svoboda-Spanbock AIA, CID
    Principal
    HERE Design and Architecture
    Los Angeles CA
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  • 16.  RE:You and Your Architect

    Posted 08-13-2012 11:12 PM
    The statement I hear before "How much will you charge me for a set of plans?" is "I need a set of plans with your seal on them".

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    D. Cook AIA
    Tipp City OH
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  • 17.  RE:You and Your Architect

    Posted 08-13-2012 11:27 AM


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    Walter Croft AIA
    Walter Croft Architect
    Riverton NJ
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    Jean,

    So much seems to be on Youtube now, please consider a format and length that would work there.  I think you have the listed the the imortant questions in your last sentence.

    Hank





    Original Message


  • 18.  RE:You and Your Architect

    Posted 10-24-2012 08:43 AM
    I think the obvious questions are always:

    1) What do architects do?
    2) How can you make it cheaper?
    3) Do I really need that?
    4) How expensive will that be?

    The answer to the first, unfortunately, is already answered in most potential client's heads and goes something like "Architects coordinate builders and engineers, get permits, and draw the exterior of the building."  When I was in Houston and a Downtown apartment housing tour took place where architects had designed multiple apartments in residential high-rises, most potential clients were shocked to know that architect's could design apartments or interiors at all.  They assumed this was the job only of interior designers.  I think this first question is an indication that we need to communicate better with the world outside of architecture.  We are incredible communicators by training and by trade, but for whatever reason, unless the client already knows what we do, we have difficulty convincing the rest of our value.  This is a major problem.

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    Andrew Daley Assoc. AIA
    Lecturer in Architecture
    University of Michigan
    Ann Arbor MI
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    Original Message


  • 19.  RE:You and Your Architect

    Posted 10-25-2012 08:48 AM
    The other (3) questions are critical to the question of worth, obviously.  In our capitalist-centered culture, where having/keeping dollars rules the day for many, value (of an architect) can be very subjective.  You can say "It will cost $X for a solution that is functional and meets your needs" (which any developer or builder can suggest)but it costs "X+Y" for a solution that is functional and meets your needs, is also custom for you, unique, technically complete, beautiful, addresses context, and is a delight to you."  Some folks will value the extra Y cost as "worth" it and others won't.  Helping folks understand the difference between the two approaches is key.
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    Rebecca Selter AIA
    Facility Architect
    Saint Joseph Mercy Health System
    Ypsilanti MI
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  • 20.  RE:You and Your Architect

    Posted 10-26-2012 02:19 PM
    In reading the responses provided everyone is responding to the questions with blinders on trying to justify our profession for people to hire architects and pay us what we think we are worth.  The issues today are:

    A.  General contractors providing services as design  build companies.   Many consumers like this since they are looking for that one stop shop approach.  As a result our profession has become diluted and our fees have been competitive in the market with them.  Also in attending a few of these seminars put on by design build contractors they dilute what architects provide as services and they claim we add cost to the project since we do not design within the owner's budget.  As design builders they design to owner's budget so there are no surprises or cost over-runs and they they provide discounts to the consumer.

    B.  Secondly today you can earn a degreee in Architectural Technology which encompases all the software programs used by our industry.  If these graduates are unable to find a positon with a company they offer their services directly to the consumer.  For these draftsman they learn the codes needed and basic space planning and thye open shop.

    C.  Most residential contractors do not want consumers to use architects because they feel we get in the way when the project is in construction. 

    We as Architects need to inform the consumers the value an architect plays in their project as opposed to using a design build company or a dafting firm.  We are there to protect them from unethical contractors and provide them guidance  through the project without worry.


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    Michele d'Amico AIA
    Owner
    d'Amico Design Group, LLC
    Honolulu HI
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    Original Message


  • 21.  RE:You and Your Architect

    Posted 10-26-2012 02:32 PM
    Rebecca, your math assumes that "Y" is a positive integer. It could very well be zero. Or, if the architect manages to find ways to build the building cheaper (by cutting out unnecessary square footage or height or by using less expensive materials, methods or layouts to achieve the same objectives) or to make the building cheaper to operate, "Y" could very well be a negative integer! That's the more important message we need to convey to the public!

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    Sean Catherall AIA
    Integrated Property Services
    Bluffdale UT
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  • 22.  RE:You and Your Architect

    Posted 10-25-2012 09:14 AM

    Andrew, you have it backwards the question is, how do architects bring value to a project? Our fee could be twice as much (or three times, four times as much) but if we save in construction cost, construction duration, improve building functionality or rentable area, and increase the structures lifecycle - who cares about a few pennies in a fee.

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    Valerie Hassett, AIA
    Alexandria VA

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  • 23.  RE:You and Your Architect

    Posted 10-25-2012 09:57 AM

    "who cares about a few pennies in a fee" believe me, they pretty much all care about a few pennies, especially when they are spending so much to build a project. Everyone beats the price down and most don't pay the last invoice. Hope the retainer covers it.

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    Thomas Streicher AIA
    Thomas Streicher, Architect
    Monroe NY
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    Original Message


  • 24.  RE:You and Your Architect

    Posted 10-25-2012 05:02 PM


    My point is architects need to articulate the true value we bring to a project. Trying to position yourself as the cheapest architect is a losing position. I know times are tough and they have been tough for a long time but that is a rabbit hole that is hard to get out of.

    All clients do not beat down price, some understand to lower fee will lower the level of service.

    Finally if you are not being paid, put a lien on the project. (Many states allow us to file a mechanic's lien -- I was part of the AIA team the put together the draft legislation for Virginia. )  

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    Valerie Hassett, AIA
    Alexandria VA

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  • 25.  RE:You and Your Architect

    Posted 10-26-2012 09:26 AM
    When clients ask about our fees or hourly costs, I tell them "Architects are cheaper than lawyers, more than plumbers, and always a bargain."  The bargain part is that you are going to get a safe, creative, efficient, and a (as unique as you want it) building that is much better suited to your needs than something off the shelf.  With a good set of plans they can get a true competitive price from more than one contractor AND they have someone qualified to see that they get what they have contracted for.  Without a clear and concise definition of what's in the contract, the contractor is free to cut lots of corners to pad his bottom line.

    I go on to tell them, if they are interested, that we charge just a little more than a realtor charges and they can sell the same building over and over, get the same money each time, and never are legally responsible for whether that building meets code, stands up, etc. We only get paid once for our weeks of work and serious liability exposure and it is not very different from the first realtor charge.

    For residential clients, I figure if they don't buy original works of art then they won't buy an original house design.  If their art comes from the big box stores then they probably just need to go find a house they like and copy it.  Many realtors tell me that when "architect's house" is on the listing that the potential buyers wanting to see it go way up.  So there appears to be an acknowledgement in the public that an architect designed house might have something special in it worth seeing.  Or maybe they are just curious.  Whatever.

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    Darrel Odom AIA, LEED AP
    President
    Odom Peckham Architecture, Inc.
    Little Rock AR
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    Original Message


  • 26.  RE:You and Your Architect

    Posted 10-26-2012 12:41 PM
    I think the problem here is how to provide the appropriate level of service for the client you're proposing to work for. Not everyone needs full service nor can they afford it, so do you just ignore those that can't afford full service? We need to make ourselves competitive at all levels and providing design services for those that can only afford the basics should not be considered unprofessional or unbecoming of excellence. These are all design problems like any other and if you can't figure out how to express your excellence for an affordable level of service then you narrow your audience. A good Architect should be able to create a great design concept with a few swipes of a pen on a napkin. Now you'll need more than that for a permit, but why is the consensus that we must do more that what's required to be excellent? Why do we always resort to how many of the most complicated drawings we can provide as our way of separating ourselves from amateur designers? That sounds like loser talk to me. We need to get out there and prove we're affordable and that we can provide the best solutions for competitive prices. The larger the fee doesn't mean you made more money. It's all about the dollars per hour. I make more money ($$$/hr) on 4 figure fees for limited service than I do for 5 figure fees for full service. You don't have to compromise your worth, you just have to work smart and not over do it. We often tell ourselves that more work=excellence and I say we're kidding ourselves. Are we just scared to compete toe to toe with the amateurs? Are we saying it's impossible to do a better job on a $80K renovation for a homeowner that only makes $50K/year for a fee they can afford? We need a serious attitude adjustment if we're going to survive!

    I have to disagree that we are lowering construction costs while providing design excellence. First, you have to ask what you're comparing yourself with in terms of offsetting design fees for construction cost savings. Even the wealthiest clients finance real estate projects. In order to arrive at a loan amount, the bank will get an appraisal. The value of your project is determined by the recent sales of "comparable" projects in your area (and I use the term comparable lightly). Here's the problem. Speculative houses are the only new houses that are considered sales. NEW CUSTOM HOUSES FOR HOMEOWNERS ARE NOT SALES!!!. If you're designing a new house for a homeowner, it will likely be compared to NEW SPEC HOUSE SALES!!! There is no way that any Architect is going to provide excellence while also cutting construction costs below what the cookie cutters are providing because their business model relies on providing the cheapest solution that qualifies as the "Best and Highest Use" category. Now you might have other nicer houses that recently sold as well, but the appraiser is looking for a range from high-medium-low and the low sales will drag you down. This means your clients will always have unfavorable appraisals, since you'll never out cheap Mr. El Cheapo the Cookie Cutter.

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    Eric Rawlings AIA
    Owner
    Rawlings Design, Inc.
    Decatur GA
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  • 27.  RE:You and Your Architect

    Posted 10-25-2012 10:03 AM
    Small business owners often compare the cost of buying a set of house plans from a magazine, worse yet the builder's recycled plans, to the cost of architectural services on commercial projects.
    1. They then ask why are architectural fees for the latter so expensive?
    2. Small business owners very often also question the fact that square foot cost goes up when the square footage goes down.
    Many come into the building process with the belief that paying for real goods - lumber and steel - are the only expenditures worth paying for.
    I prefer designing for mom and pop businesses. I think they are some of the most honest, hardworking "job creators" out there and they truelly appreciate my services once I get a chance to provide them
    Having them come to an understanding of the cost realities of commercial design and construction can be challenging.
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    Matthew Keller AIA
    DesignBuild Solutions
    Pleasant Hill IA
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  • 28.  RE:You and Your Architect

    Posted 10-26-2012 09:47 AM
    "Small business owners very often also question the fact that square foot cost goes up when the square footage goes down."

    Try this:

    Imagine a room in a building that has a certain area, a door, several windows, floor finish, ceiling, and four walls with four corners.  There is one light switch plus supply and return grilles.  If you make that room 10%  larger by moving one wall out, all you have done is moved one wall but not actually added anything to it, stretched two other walls, left the fourth wall unchanged, stretched the floor, and the ceiling.  In between the wall corners and the floor/ceiling edges are the cheapest parts of that work.  The edges and turns are the expensive part where more time+money is involved.  Unless you double or more the size of the room, you probably don't even add light fixtures or switches or outlets.  The HVAC costs don't change at all.  They just open the dampers more.  So, you probably increased the cost of that room by 2% and got 10% more area and the average price per square foot just went down.  Try making that same room smaller by the same percentage and the reverse happens.  You just saved about 2% on the cost of that room, you got 10% less area, and the average cost per square foot went up.  Now apply that logic to the entire project with all of its fixed costs that don't go up or down regardless of the building size.


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    Darrel Odom AIA, LEED AP
    President
    Odom Peckham Architecture, Inc.
    Little Rock AR
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    Original Message