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REVIT for small projects

  • 1.  REVIT for small projects

    Posted 07-29-2011 09:54 AM
    Just wondering if other small firms have taken the REVIT plunge.  If you have, how practical is REVIT and the BIM model for small major maintenance projects such as reroofs, window replacements, door and hardware replacments, small remodels and similar projects.

    -------------------------------------------
    Dale Buckingham AIA
    Dale Buckingham Architects, LLC
    Sheridan WY
    -------------------------------------------


  • 2.  RE:REVIT for small projects

    Posted 08-01-2011 09:29 AM
    I am one person home based firm and have used Revit for about 5 years now to design new and renovated homes. I find Revit allows me to do what it would normally take 3 persons to do in the same amount of time. In addition, my work is extremely detailed and accurate and I can provide my clients with services that were impractical before Revit.  It is easy for me to show them alternate design schemes in three dimensions, instantly cut sections in each alternative and builders like me because I can provide them with material take offs. In fact, I am getting work simply because I use the BIM process and, imho, Revit is the best tool for BIM.
    It did not come easy. The jump from 2d to 3d is huge and the jump from Architectural Desktop to Revit was even bigger. I satrted out with a hybrid approach, some modeling with lots of 2d but i have now advanced to where I am modeling just about everything. I have developed a library of families that I am able to use over and over so the modeling has become less intense.

    I am currently working on a beach home makeover. I used Revit on site to completyely model the existing house, it took about a day, and I have been able to use that model to superimpose four different design alternatives for the client. That took a little over a week but the alternatives are detailed 3 dimension models, with finish materials, that the client can easily understand to make rational decisions. I figure about 2 weeks for a complete and detailed set of CD's. Luckily, the floor plans and elevations and several of the building sections are already complete so all I have to do is add annotations and larger scale details. I could go on and on about the ease of doing renderings, creating demo as well as new construction views, using industry specific content (e.g. Andersen windows) and phasing project construction but that would take hours of writing.

    In short, yes, Revit is a valuable tool for the small firm, even a small firm like me doing small projects.

     Thad Broom AIA
    Architect
    Thad A. Broom AIA, P.C.
    Virginia Beach VA
    -------------------------------------------








  • 3.  RE:REVIT for small projects

    Posted 08-02-2011 12:42 PM

    Let me jump in and be the lone dissenter.  We are a 6 person firm, with 4 people preparing drawings.  We purchased REVIT two years ago and also hired a guy to do some in-house training sessions.  2 employees in the office took to the software much faster than the others and after about 6 months of training those two started a small project in REVIT.  The schematic design and design presentation drawings were great.  When we transitioned into construction drawings, the project got bogged down. 

     

    Quarter inch building sections were fine, but one and a half inch sections that had to show more detail were not.  We prepare detailed drawings for competitive bidding and the drawings have to be correct and, where necessary, we have to employ some artistic license in order to make the details read properly.  (Otherwise, things like vapor barriers and flashing just disappear.)  They found it difficult to show meaningful and clear construction details and sections.  After about 2 months and having completed little more than adequate design development drawings, we converted the plans and quarter inch sections into AutoCAD drawings and started detailing the project in 2d.

     

    We continue to use REVIT for schematic design and presentations, but we have decided to hold off on preparing construction drawings in REVIT.  We will investigate it again when we have the right project, but REVIT is not the magical program that the trade magazines describe.  I know of other architects that use it and love it, but they are doing design/build drawings and I don't believe they are as detail oriented as the bid market requires.

    -------------------------------------------
    Robert Smith AIA
    Architect
    -------------------------------------------








  • 4.  RE:REVIT for small projects

    Posted 08-03-2011 09:18 AM
    Robert,

    I am glad that your firm is slowly evolving to Revit as that is the best way. You have to not only grow comfortable with working with the program but also grow to trust it and that takes time. If you are comfortable with the design development in Revit you are halfway there.
    I strongly recommend that you do your cd's in revit also. I use the out of the box detail components, or create my own, to superimpose over the model just as I did in Architectural Dektop. I also download and use lots of details that manufacturer's place on their web sites. Sure, its just a form of 2d drafting but it is done in the context of the Revit model and can be linked to the model via the align tool. If the model changes, the 2d detailing can change to follow suit. Learn how to use the cut profile tool in the view menu to alter model elements to take shapes dictated by construction requirements. Learn how to superimpose a window manufacturer's details on the revit windows, or better yet, manufacturer created families,  so that when a section is cut, the level of detail seen is appropriate to the scale. Lastly, do not hesitate to import or create details in drafting views. They are not directly linked to the model but they can be referenced in the model.
    I also organize my browser so that it organizes the views by AIA format. For example, all plans are grouped under "100 Plan Views" and further separated as either base plan views (no annotaions ) and sheet plan views (fully annotated  and placed on sheets). I use the base views provide backgrounds to consultants in Autocad format or use them to more easily make design changes without all the clutter of notes and dimensions. I also save the original approved Revit model as a new CD model so that I never lose the original work. The original is deleted after the CD's are completed.

    Email me at beacharchitec@gmail.com if I can help you in anyway.  

    -------------------------------------------
    Thad Broom AIA
    Architect
    Thad A. Broom AIA, P.C.
    Virginia Beach VA
    -------------------------------------------








  • 5.  RE:REVIT for small projects

    Posted 08-01-2011 11:11 AM
    MSH (12 person firm) made the "plunge" in the year 2000 so basically, we were a beta test firm although we didn't know it at the time.  Best advice I can give is, if you decide to make the switch, make the plunge 100%.  We had to take all other drafting software off of our "beta-employee's" computer in order to force him to use REVIT on the first project.  Soon the entire office was on it and we never looked back.

    I guess if all you do is "small major maintence projects", you don't need REVIT.

    -------------------------------------------
    Robin Miller AIA
    MSH Architects
    Sioux Falls SD
    -------------------------------------------








  • 6.  RE:REVIT for small projects

    Posted 08-01-2011 12:39 PM
    We're a 3 person firm, using ArchiCad, not Revit, but still BIM, since 2008.  I concur with the others--it's the way to go, and make the transition completely, not halfway.  The new release of ArchiCad 15 is especially good for us since it has a renovation feature, allowing us to tag all elements New, Demo, or Existing (to remain), making remodels way quicker, with less layer issues.  I know Autodesk has the biggest market share in most US markets, but ArchiCad has been at it since the 90's, and seems to be doing well with architect-focused innovation.

    -------------------------------------------
    Thomas Bassett-Dilley AIA
    Principal
    Tom Bassett-Dilley Architect, Ltd.
    Oak Park IL
    -------------------------------------------








  • 7.  RE:REVIT for small projects

    Posted 08-02-2011 03:32 PM
    I am a one-person office in Oak Park, IL and have used Revit almost exclusively for the past three years. If I have a really small project which involves only a simple plan, I revert to AutoCAD because I am faster at it.  You can use Revit in a 2D mode but the drafting tools are not as easy to use as AutoCAD. "Modeling" in a remodeling projects initially takes more time than "drafting" because of the quircky nature of older buildings. There is lots to learn in Revit, and the only way to learn it is to use it and try out different things. How to strategize the building of a model is a skill that is not necessary in 2D drafting, nor is it always straight-forward so I have had to think differently about graphic communication. Going from manual drafting to 2D CAD was an easy transition because the results of the drawing were the same. But going from 2D CAD to a Model is an immense step. Revit fools the beginner because it is very easy to draw walls and place doors and windows. Integrating floors, roofs and stairs into the plan is tricky.

    -------------------------------------------
    Frank Heitzman AIA
    Architect
    Heitzman Architects
    Oak Park IL
    -------------------------------------------








  • 8.  RE:REVIT for small projects

    Posted 08-01-2011 11:12 AM
    This is a great question. I think to broaden the discussion is to ask does anyone use any BIM platform for small projects? How about additions or renovations, do you build a model of the existing structure? We use Vectorworks which has a good 2D/3D BIM platform too.

    I find it difficult to justify the time to build a 3D model of an existing building when the contractors do not need or want intelligent or digital output. They just want a good set of drawings.

    -------------------------------------------
    Lee Calisti AIA
    Principal
    lee CALISTI architecture+design
    Greensburg PA
    -------------------------------------------








  • 9.  RE:REVIT for small projects

    Posted 08-01-2011 12:09 PM
    I bought Revit two years ago. Although the learning curve is rigorous, once I got my head around it there was no going back. There are now so many 3D content elements available online, both free and for purchase, that, for me as a 1-person office, the time saved in detailing already pays for the software. Also, since you are working on your building or remodel in 3D, the time saved in coordination, layout of views and even presentation drawings is improved. I really like Revit.

    On the down side, the problem I run into is when I need help on a project. Finding a freelancer with his/her own software and knowledge of the program is a challenge. In that scenario I have to export Revit sheets to AutoCAD (easy . . . ) and move the project over to 2D. Not ideal, but I don't have that issue very often.

    -------------------------------------------
    Alan Kanter AIA
    Principal
    Alan Kanter Architect
    Aptos CA
    -------------------------------------------








  • 10.  RE:REVIT for small projects

    Posted 08-02-2011 08:50 AM
    We struggled for a few years with the decision to go to BIM (we purchased REVIT 18 months ago and only recently completed our first project).  Our firm works on small to medium sized commercial projects, new buildings, but also a lot of small renovation and interior fitup work.  We have been using AutoCAD Architecture for many years, ever since Architectural Desktop 3.3.  So, we have been working in 3-d (sort of) for a while, drawing walls and doors, not just linework.  While REVIT and AutoCAD Architecture have a lot of similar concepts and features, they are very different programs with different processes.  To help assist with the inevitable learning curve, everyone in the office took a 33-hour training course in REVIT at a local college.  While that was invaluable, we still struggled with pulling the trigger.  Currently, we are 80% AutoCAD Architecture/20% REVIT.  We have found that our ideal projects for REVIT are new buildings, and that the learning curve was not as steep as feared.

    We have not converted fully to REVIT, however.  For interior renovations and fitups, we cannot currently justify to our clients that they need us to first model the existing building in REVIT before we can renovate the interior, so those we continue to do in AutoCAD.  (However, with additional projects under our belt, I fully expect our staff to be able to model an existing building in REVIT just as quickly (or quicker) than drawing it in AutoCAD.)

    Our biggest current obstacle is convincing our 2d AutoCAD-entrenched engineering consultants that REVIT is necessary, and may eventually become more economical than their current processes.  Let's face it, very few folks are willing to actually spend more time or money (buy the software, learn the software, struggle throught the first several projects) to do the same task as they perceive it, especially in these times.  Also, I personally believe that the REVIT Architecture package is more advanced and refined, with a lot more available info online, than REVIT Structure or REVIT PME. Finally, past (bad) experiences with REVIT projects with improperly-trained Architects have given their staff a sour taste.  We keep hammering on them, however.

    -------------------------------------------
    Edmund Gontram AIA
    Gontram Architecture, Inc.
    Raleigh NC
    -------------------------------------------








  • 11.  RE:REVIT for small projects

    Posted 08-03-2011 09:09 AM
    I have been using Revit for six years on small projects.  The primary benefit is getting 3D images almost immediately for my client and for my benefit.  Once I got up to speed (6-9 Months) and built up a library of families that worked for my type of projects (schools, churches, and office buildings) I found Revit to be faster than Autocad on new projects.  On renovations, it is too time consuming to build a Revit model of the existing building in order to do some minor addition or renovation.  

    Autodesk tries to imply that a complete building information model can be created that does a lot of the work for the contractor and that every design professional, general contractor, subcontractor, and owner in the world needs to buy and use Revit.  I think they exaggerate that bigtime.  The Contract Documents communicate the design intent to the Contractor(s) not the exact methods and materials required to get there.  The information in the overall building is very general and good for preliminary cost estimating only.  Yes, there are intelligent objects that the architect can assign cost data, manufacturer, quantity, etc. to them and accept the liability for the accuracy of that info.  But there are still crude "work-arounds" that create roofs, objects, and site components that don't work at all as to providing building information.  The best example is if I model a standing seam roof to create realistic images I have to use the sloped glazing tool, eliminate the frames in the horizontal direction, and glaze with metal to simulate a standing seam roof.  How does a contractor do a take-off with that?!?!

    In time, many owners may call for a complete BIM project including all consultant's work.  Autodesk has provided Revit Structural and Mech but Revit has very crude, at best, site tools.  Autodesk acts like every Architect will hire a Civil Engineer using a, yet to be produced, Revit Civil Software, and they don't need to provide basic BIM site tools in Revit.  I have complained to every Autodesk rep I encountered for six years with no results.

    One irritant about Revit is it is obvious that the Revit software engineers are focused on the Bimmy/3D end of Revit and aren't concerned about the basic "drafting" tools.  Autodesk, still, makes far more money serving the CADCAM manufacturing world where the user is "drafting" widgets and needs efficient tools to do so.  Simple things like "hit space bar to repeat last command" in Autocad, still cannot be replicated in Revit.  It is a two or three click mouse journey across the screen to repeat the last command in Revit.  It took years for them to finally get the "box to the right to select crossing objects and box to the left to select interior objects."

    Overall, I give Revit a B- grade, but if they really added site tools and got more efficient in the drafting end of it, I would give it an A-.  I can't give it an "A" because I think they exaggerate the effectiveness of the BIM product and it is just not as powerful, yet, as they claim.  JMVHO

    -------------------------------------------
    Darrel Odom AIA
    President
    Odom Peckham Architecture, Inc.
    Little Rock AR
    -------------------------------------------




  • 12.  RE:REVIT for small projects

    Posted 08-04-2011 01:03 AM
    Very good points Darrel.

    The largest impediment that I see for using Revit is its "exactitude."  I think that you correctly pointed out its "crudeness", but I think therein lies a paradox.  There can be many stalls during a Revit session when some part of a procedure doesn't meet an unwieldly or counter intuitive protocol.  Users may get error messages prohibiting forward progress and give up. 

    There is nothing wrong with imperfect documents depending upon the degree of imperfection.  At times Revit doesn't give users any opportunities for any kind of imperfections.  For as much a tool like Revit trumpets its capabilities for quantifying, you would think that it would also be able to quantify the imperfections in the model without causing the whole thing to be unusable.

    -------------------------------------------
    Ken Brogno AIA
    Architect
    San Francisco CA
    -------------------------------------------








  • 13.  RE:REVIT for small projects

    Posted 08-05-2011 08:49 AM
    Has anyone tried Google Sketchup Layout?  They gave a demonstration in New Orleans which made it seem like a great tool to create documents from a model.  For a small firm who doesn't need the data capabilities of BIM, it seems like a nice time saver.  

    thanks

    -------------------------------------------
    John Bencich AIA
    Owner
    Square Feet Studio
    Atlanta GA
    -------------------------------------------








  • 14.  RE:REVIT for small projects

    Posted 08-05-2011 08:59 AM

    Thank you for those honest enough to admit the down sides to BIM rather than drink the BIM Kool Aid and get on the band wagon blindly. I use Vectorworks 2011 and I am working on learning its BIM capabilities so that the computer can do some of the work for me. I believe it is the smart direction to move and I'd love to get CD's done quicker and avoid human error. Of course we all love seeing our designs in 3d.

    However, we are architects and we are the humans in charge here. It is our still our job to design, manage and coordinate our projects. Using technology to increase productivity and reduce errors is an obvious choice to pursue. I am not opposed to BIM as a concept, but as a sole proprietor, the learning curve is much longer since I am doing so many different things everyday in addition to drawing on the computer. Many days I am barely on my computer because I am on the phone or out at some meeting. I feel I am an expert at 2d CAD and only 'good' at 3d modeling and rendering. However, at building a BIM model, I seem to get in my own way. I want the computer to do it my way, but it won't obey.

    My larger, more fundamental problem with BIM is it forces us to design and produce our designs counterintuitive to how we've been trained and how we think as architects. It wants precision and information too early. I still draw and sketch with pencils and fat markers on yellow trace. There is a fluidity to that process. Even drafting by hand is still loose because it doesn't require the exactness that a computer demands. Even CAD requires a specific dimension to enter information. Now BIM exaggerates that and wants not just physical size and location, but the other data that I can't even think about until I have a design concept.

    Yes, it's cool to blow smoke out of the computer with quick 3d images to impress clients, but is it good design? I am in favor of any tool that can allow us to quickly study spatial concepts and test multiple ideas, yet I find it can often "hide" the weakness of the design by wooing us with cool rendering techniques. Believe me, I've been fooled by them myself. I've been guilty of feeling "satisfied" with a design long before its had time to fully develop.

    My last problem is my office does mostly renovations and additions. New buildings have been rare these days. I don't have the patience or fee to build a model of an existing building. I am a stickler for beautiful, detailed drawings, but I can do that much quicker with traditional CAD tools. Some of you have been honest to explain the weaknesses of BIM when it comes to detail. At a small scale, the drawing may look just fine, but what happens when we need to enter the detail? At 1-1/2" = 1'-0" scale, we find the 1/8"=1'-0" cartoon just doesn't cut it.

    My work is generally not repetitive, my details are custom and I find the "smart" objects in my program to be a bit clunky looking. They're hard if not impossible to edit, and I know from colleagues, that Revit is equally as guilty.

    I said before, the contractors that I work with on small projects wouldn't have a clue to know what to do with digital information. What will it accomplish to have a 3d intelligent model of a small project? We have great contractors, but we still work on paper here in Pennsylvania.

    I've seen many buildings in magazines where they've celebrated how it was designed using Revit. To be honest, looking at the buildings, it is obvious that Revit deserves the credit. The designs are average at best.

    I hope we train future architects to still be architects and only use BIM as a tool. I said before, I am in favor of moving towards BIM appropriately, but I am struggling to find a way to use it completely. I hope the software companies learn how to program it to us as architects, rather than force me to change how I think to use the tool.


    -------------------------------------------
    Lee Calisti AIA
    Principal
    lee CALISTI architecture+design
    Greensburg PA
    -------------------------------------------








  • 15.  RE:REVIT for small projects

    Posted 08-05-2011 10:34 AM
    I've been using VectorWorks since I started my practice in 2002 and can recommend it. It works well as a BIM platform, and 2D tools are always available for projects that don't require 3D.

    -------------------------------------------
    Philip S. Wheelock, Jr. AIA
    Wheelock Associates Architects
    Uxbridge, MA
    -------------------------------------------




    Are there other BIM programs (aside from REVIT) folks can recommend for small residential projects?

    -------------------------------------------
    Rick Schmidt AIA
    Principal, AIA, LEED AP
    RF Schmidt Architects
    Chestnut Hill MA
    -------------------------------------------



  • 16.  RE:REVIT for small projects

    Posted 08-05-2011 01:01 PM
    We've been using REVIT exclusively for so long that I can't compare it to much else.  We use it because it is extremely stable, gives us the ability to go in multiple directions (renderings, detailing, etc.) with one platform and it appears to be the only BIM product out there.  From my perspective, the other systems appear to be great 3-D modeling systems but they lack actual building information contained in the model.  We don't acknowledge any other system to be BIM.  Correct me if I'm wrong on this, but there is a huge difference.

    We do not go as far as to produce details in linked drawings however.  Since our clients aren't requiring this, we draw them with REVIT but the details aren't a part of the larger BIM drawing, therefore not truly BIM.

    And we do not provide BIM data to our clients or the contractors, as the contracts that we are presented with, do not compensate us for this.  Under the right conditions, we would sell this as we believe it would give us and our clients an advantage.  Time will tell if this ever becomes a new norm in the industry.

    We probably benefit most from conflict detection and parametrics.  What we call "design related change orders" and our clients call "drafting errors" have dropped to less than .2% which results in dramatic savings compared to the 3% that one state employee told us was considered "very good".  Because of this, we realize less CA time and the owners can pocket that 2.8% savings in "design related change orders".  Although it is an almost impossible sell (our clients are skeptical of any self promotion), it's reality.

    REVIT is not drafting, it's modeling.  We recently produced our first project with a structural engineer who used REVIT and experienced no architectral and no structural change orders.  MEP "drafted" their work and we were not so fortunate there.

    Here's a true story; We were hired to do a ride for a large amusement park.  It was to be built in and around an existing roller coaster.  As we modelled the project, we took a "ride" on the roller coaster and discovered that a lanky rider could reach out and physically hit a spire on the proposed new structure.  We were able to move the model over and estimate that we saved roughly three months and $500,000 to $1,000,000 in construction re-do for the client, not to mention the lost revenue from a later opening date.  Did they jump up and down and cut us larger checks?  We wish, but consider the consequences, should we not have been able to experience the full extent of that model.

    Also consider that some of your producers may not be able to make the transition to 3-D modeling.  We did have to let one person go because he simply could not make the mental leap.

    Some of you say there's a 9 month learning curve.  I believe that's because you aren't making the plunge, but trying to run parallel software.  My original post advised that if you go to REVIT, you need should make the plunge 100%.  As a minimum, take one project, hand it to how ever many people you believe it will take to do the job.  Double the amount of time you would normally expect to "draft it" and remove all other drafting software from their computers.  Then celebrate their successes and make them your core REVIT team as they teach the rest of the office on future projects.  Expensive?  Time consuming?  Yup.  Worth it in the long run?  We believe so.  Now, where's my commission?

    Here's a suggestion.  Send one or two of your people to Sioux Falls, and we'll train 'em in two weeks.
    -------------------------------------------
    Robin Miller AIA
    MSH Architects
    Sioux Falls SD
    -------------------------------------------








  • 17.  RE:REVIT for small projects

    Posted 08-04-2011 12:14 PM
    This discussion is pretty interesting as I have been wondering whether I should convert to Revit.  However, the ONE THING that hasn't been addressed is the cost ($5,500!!).  I simply cannot justify the price tag.  As a sole proprietor I cannot conceive of how I will possibly make it up in added productivity, especially since I will be looking at a 6-9 month learning curve, my engineers don't use it, and the contractors I work with have no use for it. 

    I'll stick with my 2d drafting program, ride it until I have to update the software, and use Sketchup for 3d modelling.  It's not perfect, but it's what my firm can afford. 

    -------------------------------------------
    Mary Holley AIA
    President
    ma2 architects
    Basalt CO
    -------------------------------------------








  • 18.  RE:REVIT for small projects

    Posted 08-05-2011 07:14 AM
    Drawing your projects once in 2D for the CDs and again in 3D for the client is doubling your work load. I spent 5 years teaching a firm how to use ArchiCAD to consolidate the same inefficient process you are utilizing. Draw it once! You should look at ArchiCAD. It's been the same fundamental BIM program since 1989. Revit is a cheap knock off that costs more. ArchiCAD will always be leading the BIM industry. It amazes me how AutoDesk has scared Architects into believing they are the only company offering CAD or BIM. It sickens me how they use mafia like tactics to strong arm clients into buying stuff they don't need and upgrading when they can't afford it. Oh yeah, it's the only BIM/CAD program that a MAC & PC can use at the same time in the same file. Revit doesn't even support MAC.

    -------------------------------------------
    Eric Rawlings AIA
    Owner
    Rawlings Design, Inc.
    Decatur GA
    -------------------------------------------








  • 19.  RE:REVIT for small projects

    Posted 08-02-2011 09:32 AM

    I have used Revit for so many years it was not even an Autodesk product when I first tried it. It can save time, coordinate changes and most importantly give clients the confidence to move forward...they have seen their future project from every angle!  I have a one person firm specializing in residential design, new homes, renovations and small additions. My favorite tool is the model cut that creates a plan axonometric ....instantly clients can understand a plan.  

    -------------------------------------------
    Rebecca Riden AIA
    Architect
    Rebecca Riden AIA Architect
    Prairie Village KS
    -------------------------------------------








  • 20.  RE:REVIT for small projects

    Posted 08-04-2011 08:09 AM
    I'm contemplating purchasing REVIT or Chief Architect.

    Based on my limited experience, Chief Architect is more attractive for my practice due to price and for what appears to be a shorter learning curve.

    Are there other BIM programs (aside from REVIT) folks can recommend for small residential projects?

    -------------------------------------------
    Rick Schmidt AIA
    Principal, AIA, LEED AP
    RF Schmidt Architects
    Chestnut Hill MA
    -------------------------------------------








  • 21.  RE:REVIT for small projects

    Posted 08-05-2011 07:00 AM
    You should look at ArchiCAD. It is the original BIM program and Revit is the cheap knock off. It's like MAC vs PC. In fact ArchiCAD has not only been fundamentally the same BIM program since 1989, it can support both MAC & PC at the same time in the same file. As far as I know, Revit still only supports PC. I've been using it since 1997. I haven't looked at Revit in several years, but it has always seemed clunky and less elegant. ArchiCAD is an international program and it's icon based, not command based and it doesn't have some screwy interface to make it dwg friendly (Revit wasn't always an AutoDesk product). ArchiCAD is rather easy to learn for such a complex application. I spent 5 years teaching a firm how to switch over and use the program with great efficiency.

    As far as the learning curve goes with BIM, you must trust in the 3D modeling process. I used to tell everyone that you should model anything that that you see more than once at 1/4"=1'-0". Don't model bolt heads or light switches for the sake of your CDs. Always kill 2-3 birds with one stone. Why use 2D lines to represent ceilings in your RCP when you can use 3D elements that also show up in the sections? All too often people redraw items with 2D elements that they also drew in 3D. If you draw something in 3D, try to find a way to use that item in both plan and elevation/section. The minute you start resorting to drawing plan, section, or elevation items in 2D, the sooner the BIM process becomes more cumbersome and less useful. The main problem with BIM is the fact that a model must be kept together, but the boss wants a front elevation TODAY or some other view that may not be developed yet. This is especially difficult for larger projects and the people at the top must be educated about the BIM process as well as the CAD techies. I witnessed too many people panic and draw a single elevation in 2D for a meeting and from that point forward they pseudo modeled the plan and had to constantly redraw the sections and elevations in 2D, thus missing the whole point of keeping all of the drawings "interconnected". BIM allows one to ditch the X-ref and use the model, layer management, and 3D modules to create a more sophisticated connection between drawings.

    -------------------------------------------
    Eric Rawlings AIA
    Owner
    Rawlings Design, Inc.
    Decatur GA
    -------------------------------------------








  • 22.  RE:REVIT for small projects

    Posted 08-08-2011 06:06 AM
    I'm surprised no one has mentioned Vectorworks yet.  It's a complete 2D/3D package, BIM-ready, that's sold in modules so you can buy as much or as little as you need, and it runs on either Mac or PC.  Reads and writes dwg or dxf files for sharing with other offices.  The basic architect's package, for a single license, runs $2200 and you can add their quite good Renderworks module (with textures and a few other rendering tools) for $500.  Or you can buy the entire suite for $3200, and that includes Mech/Elec symbols, landscape and terrain modeling package, and an outstanding lighting design module that's used by stage and entertainment designers as well as architects.  A new learner can be productive on it quite quickly, although it offers so much that one can spend several months getting really good at it.  I'm a sole practitioner doing mainly residential work, and I do every project in 3D from the start, then develop 2d from that just as Eric has recommended.  Every client gets a 3D model that can be viewed from any angle exterior or interior, and it helps me to avoid mistakes and conflicts too.  The larger firm I formerly worked for also used VW, and the suite has provision for work groups coordination so that multiple operators can access the same project simultaneously.  Check it out at Nemetschek.net.

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    Bruce Ward AIA
    Proprietor
    Hamilton NY
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  • 23.  RE:REVIT for small projects

    Posted 08-09-2011 10:14 AM

    Am I wrong about this?  Is 3D the same as BIM?

    Or does BIM represent the wealth of information that comes from only a very few, perhaps really only one software package?

    I'm not here to defend REVIT, just not sure that BIM is well defined.

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    Robin Miller AIA
    MSH Architects
    Sioux Falls SD
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  • 24.  RE:REVIT for small projects

    Posted 08-10-2011 08:29 AM

    Robin,

    IMHO, BIM is way more than 3d. The I in BIM means information and any good BIM software needs to be able to keep track of tons of it.  Rooms, spaces, materials, objects, finishes, phasing, metrics, etc. must all be accounted for and out put in a variety of ways, be it graphic or tabular. In addition, all this  information must be in a data base flexible enough to be used for cost estimating, energy calculations, LEED calculations, structural anaylsis and facilities management.
    -------------------------------------------
    Thad Broom AIA
    Architect
    Thad A. Broom AIA, P.C.
    Virginia Beach VA
    -------------------------------------------








  • 25.  RE:REVIT for small projects

    Posted 08-11-2011 09:30 AM
    I have a hard time seeing the BIM model ever providing exact enough information to the Contractor for him to rely on it for his bidding information.  Even if the Architect accepts liability if the information is incorrect or incomplete, any Contractor worth his salt is going to do his own takeoff hoping to find a competitive (also know as profit making) edge.  The fact is that most Contractor's have their own takeoff methods, rules of thumb, and unique experience.  The information that one needs to do his work is usually different than what the next one needs.  Revit, the only BIM I know, provides very rough information for the general building envelope.  It can be more exact on things placed in or inside of the envelope, intelligent objects like doors, windows, plumbing fixtures, etc.  Assuming the information tagged to those objects is correct and in the format needed by the down-the-line user, that may be helpful for keeping track of the exact number and make up of these items.

    BIM doesn't work at all for the contractor in a competitive bidding situation. That might explain why the non-competitive delivery systems seem married to the BIM process.  As long as there is plenty and easy access to money for the Contractor, he doesn't need exact information.  He just puts enough money in there to cover problems and keeps whatever is not needed.  If the owner is using someone else's money, that scenario seems to sort of work.  As soon as an owner wants to know for sure he is getting a fair price on his building, the fox (Contractor) gets booted out of the hen house (the non-competitive pricing process) and has to go back to competing with the other foxes to generate the best price for the Contract Documents.

    General building performance providing energy analysis models is certainly there and very exciting.  Solar studies, LEED analysis, etc. are great tools only possible in BIM.  The owner gets to see what brand and model his windows or water fountains are (assuming someone got paid to produce an As-Built BIM model) without having to look for his box of shop drawings.  There certainly are benefits to the BIM process, but reality doesn't quite match the hype in some of the claims from the BIM software sellers.  JMVHO

    PS:  There is a basic concept of Architecture:  "The Contract Documents communicate the intent, not the exact means, materials, and methods required to achieve that result.  Those are the responsibility of the Builder."  The arrival of BIM does not negate the validity of that concept.  JMVHO

    -------------------------------------------
    Darrel Odom AIA LEED AP AIA
    President
    Odom Peckham Architecture, Inc.
    Little Rock AR
    -------------------------------------------








  • 26.  RE:REVIT for small projects

    Posted 08-12-2011 06:01 PM
    Darrel:

    I agree that BIM doesn't really work for the contractor in a competitive bid situation, but only in the sense that more often than not, the bidding documents spun off the BIM file/model are something that could have been created with most any 2D software. So the BIM features of the project are usually invisible to a bidding contractor. I'm sure there are practitioners out there who may have found creative ways to exploit BIM for a set of bid documents in ways that couldn't be done without BIM; perhaps they can weigh in here.

    I use ArchiCAD, where construction document creation and production is completely integrated into the software. The software is fully capable of producing bid sets, and arguable doing it better than older more traditional methods. While the BIM features of the project will usually be invisible to a bidding contractor, there will be benefits from the BIM model during construction. I know from experience.

    The BIM model can quantify materials in countless ways, but for bid documents I'm best off presenting the information in ways that the bidders are used to seeing it, which is very traditional. ArchiCAD does this, and I suspect all others like Revit do as well. It's not really "dumbing things down"; it just works that way, (or should) as well as many newer ways.

    "Non-competitive delivery systems" as you call it offers many more creative opportunities to involve the contractor in the design process, and BIM can enhance those opportunities. 

    The BIM concept uses a single file for many purposes: creating the design, selling it, bidding it, building it, and maintaining and modifying it afterward. That's the key concept. It's more than a rendering for a planning commission, and more than a design tool, if the software is designed right. "I" is for "Information", and the BIM file becomes a huge database, if so desired. That means its customizable to the extent that the parties to the project wish it to be so. The parties can ignore all these features, create a set of construction documents that could have come from any software, 2D or 3D, or they can create a huge database for every piece of equipment and furniture in a building, as well as include the energy performance of materials, room data, cost data, and many other types of information if judged to be useful for current records and future maintenance.

    Hope this sheds some light on your concerns. Let me know if I've misread something. Cheers....


    -------------------------------------------
    Craig Bagley AIA
    Owner
    Craig Bagley Architect
    Santa Cruz CA
    -------------------------------------------








  • 27.  RE:REVIT for small projects

    Posted 08-09-2011 12:51 PM
    I'll second that Bruce. It's been a great program for my residential practice. I jumped into Vectorworks after 35 years of hand drawing and while there was a learning curve, the technical staff, webinars and on line community boards have provided outstanding support. 

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    Vincent Oles AIA
    Owner/Architect
    Vincent Oles Architect AIA, llc.
    Salt Lake City UT
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  • 28.  RE:REVIT for small projects

    Posted 08-05-2011 08:28 AM
    I operate a one-person practice.  Seven years ago I ditched AutoCad for SoftPlan. It took me six weeks to get up and running on SP.  After six months I felt I knew the program better than Acad, which I had been using for about 10 years.

    SP is relatively affordable, and comes ready to use out of the box.  The tech support (that comes with the product) is fantastic!  They have a very affordable price structure for additional seats too.

    Five years ago I went back to work for a residential design/build company that had purchased Revit.  In the three years i was there, we could not get fully up and running on it.  We felt there was too much "prgramming" that needed to be done to get it functional for residential design.  At the time, Revit didn't even have major window mfr. libraries.  I understand they have come a long way since.  and, I applaud you small firms that have been able to implement Revit in your practices.

    SP and Chief are a lot alike.  I have heard that Chief is better for 3D and SP is stronger in it's CD capacity. If you are doing single family homes, it is highly unlikely that you will need a program that is compatible with your consultants.
     
    I urge and small practitioner to shop around and demo as many programs as you can.  Take into account the price structure.  Even at $2,400.00, SP is a big investment for a small firm, Revit even more so.  Don't buy a program blindly, because you have been told it is the industry leader.  Choose the program that is the best fit for you. 

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    Edward Shannon AIA
    Waterloo IA
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  • 29.  RE:REVIT for small projects

    Posted 08-08-2011 09:51 AM

    I am a sole proprietor and have had very good success using Chief Architect for the last 3 years. I focus mainly on residential and light commercial work.  Chief is relatively user friendly and has lots of good support both from the company itself and user groups.  Also fairly inexpensive up front costs.

    -------------------------------------------
    Michael Dolce AIA
    Owner / Architect
    Michael P. Dolce, AIA Architect
    Forest Hill MD
    -------------------------------------------








  • 30.  RE:REVIT for small projects

    Posted 08-05-2011 09:13 AM
    Rick - take a look at Vectorworks Architect.  We have been using it for quite a while with few real complaints. 

    http://www.nemetschek.net/

    -------------------------------------------
    Andrew Fethes AIA
    President
    Andrew Fethes Architects PA
    Oradell NJ
    -------------------------------------------








  • 31.  RE:REVIT for small projects

    Posted 08-05-2011 10:31 AM
    I second Andrew's suggestion about Vectorworks.

    -------------------------------------------
    Lee Calisti AIA
    Principal
    lee CALISTI architecture+design
    Greensburg PA
    -------------------------------------------








  • 32.  RE:REVIT for small projects

    Posted 08-05-2011 09:48 AM
    I have been using Archicad for many years and it is wonderful to be out of the Autocad system.

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    Stewart Brecher AIA
    Stewart Brecher Architects
    Bar Harbor ME
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  • 33.  RE:REVIT for small projects

    Posted 08-05-2011 10:13 AM
    I bought Chief Architect last December after 17 years of AutoCad and AutoCad-Architectural Desktop, and I am pleased with the purchase.  I run a solo office and do custom residential design work.  I have produced several designs and sets of construction drawings now with Chief Architect and really like working in this program.  It was about half of the cost of a REVIT upgrade including subscription services.  I found the program easy to learn, the online training/help videos are great, and they also have training webinars.  It does 3D modeling of your building, and you can also model the site.  The libraries of furniture, materials, textures, colors, and landscape materials are very useful.  The 3D images are quite realistic and very helpful for residential clients to understand the design.  It can export drawings to AutoCad so I can send them to my structural engineer.  Before I switched, I tried modeling in Sketch-Up and producing CD's in AutoCad, but the double drawing time made me think that there must be a better way.  I am quite happy with Chief Architect...


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    Kimberly Marland AIA, LEED AP
    Principal
    Marland Architecture
    Boone NC
    -------------------------------------------








  • 34.  RE:REVIT for small projects

    Posted 08-05-2011 04:03 PM
    I've been using Archicad for small mostly residential projects for the last 8 years and can't imagine going back to AUTOCAD. It is a fully functional BIM program that is intuitive like sketchup, but also equally at home with complex models and the development of CD's. I can model a home in just a few hours and add detail as the project progresses- all in 3D. The biggest bonus for small projects is that it is available for purchase by a 100 or 300 hour key- under $2 per hour- program updates included. While it's not as well known as REVIT, ARCHICAD is just as powerful a program, designed specifically for architecture, and by the sounds of it easier to learn- although I do recommend some training. 

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    Jean Terwilliger AIA
    Architect
    Jean Terwilliger, AIA, Architect
    Cornwall VT
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  • 35.  RE:REVIT for small projects

    Posted 08-08-2011 03:20 PM
    I have been using both Chief Architect and ArchiCAD for a strictly residential practice for probably close to 15 years. Used to be I did the design in Chief and then exported to ArchiCAD for CDs. However, Chief has been making ssignificant strides in the production area, so that for smaller, less demanding projects, I stick to Chief for everything.

    I would say that the decision rests on the type of work you do. If you do projects that are heavily into detailed interiors -- moldings, furniture, kitchens, cabinets, etc. and have fairly "mainstream" exteriors, then Chief is excellent. Also, pretty easy to learn, with lots of videos available.

    If you are into leaning (canted) walls, heavily detailed exteriors, regularly do production sets that are more than, say, 15 pages, with lots of finicky details and many schedules, you may be happier with ArchiCAD. I'd say that ArchiCAD is more sophisticated with their 2D drafting tools, so if you do lots of detailing, this may be something in its favor. Also, the latest release has special tools for renovation projects.

    I have tried hard to like Revit, but I just can't stand the spreadsheet-style interface. I do have colleagues that use this for residential work, so it's certainly possible.

    -------------------------------------------
    Richard Morrison AIA
    Richard Morrison, AIA, ASID
    Redwood City CA
    -------------------------------------------