Project Delivery

This message has been cross posted to the following Discussion Forums: Project Delivery and Interior Architecture Committee .
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As part of our practice, we sometimes manage aspects of other firm's interior design projects.

The issue has arisen numerous times that the interior design firms fail to actually design a furnishing item, providing instead a general description of size and finish and a catalog cut of another furnishing, more often than not of a completely different type (detail on a piece of hardware to be turned into a mirror frame, for example) or at least completely different proportions. This puts the fabricator in the position of actually having to design the furnishing item, without getting paid for that work, while the designer is being paid for it and not doing it.

I have been looking for some language that clearly defines what information is required for a detail drawing of this type. There is plenty available concerning what shop drawings aren't, but not a lot that I could find clarifying what design drawings are.

Anybody know where I can quickly get ahold of such language?

Thanks!

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Kate Svoboda-Spanbock AIA, CID
Principal
HERE Design and Architecture
Los Angeles CA
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The designer is obligated to their client via an agreed upon contract. It's probably rare to see the level of detail you're looking for defined in contract unless there is an agreed upon Deliverable scope detail. I wonder why the fabricator wouldn't be paid for the effort to complete a design when the lacking design should be evident in the documents they had to bid the job. If they are given adequate time to bid the job and provided documentation, this design effort should be a known part of their coordination effort. ------------------------------------------- Tom Dillenbeck AIA Project Architect Hobbs & Black Associates, Inc. Ann Arbor MI -------------------------------------------
Original Message: Sent: 06-03-2013 15:25 From: Kate Svoboda-Spanbock Subject: Design Drawings vs. Shop Drawings This message has been cross posted to the following Discussion Forums: Project Delivery and Interior Architecture Committee . ------------------------------------------- As part of our practice, we sometimes manage aspects of other firm's interior design projects. The issue has arisen numerous times that the interior design firms fail to actually design a furnishing item, providing instead a general description of size and finish and a catalog cut of another furnishing, more often than not of a completely different type (detail on a piece of hardware to be turned into a mirror frame, for example) or at least completely different proportions. This puts the fabricator in the position of actually having to design the furnishing item, without getting paid for that work, while the designer is being paid for it and not doing it. I have been looking for some language that clearly defines what information is required for a detail drawing of this type. There is plenty available concerning what shop drawings aren't, but not a lot that I could find clarifying what design drawings are. Anybody know where I can quickly get ahold of such language? Thanks! ------------------------------------------- Kate Svoboda-Spanbock AIA, CID Principal HERE Design and Architecture Los Angeles CA -------------------------------------------

Another example is fire protection systems.  The architect passes the design responsibility on to the sub.  But, it always works!  Seen a lot of them.



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Timothy Mead AIA
Timothy N. Mead, AIA, Architect
Kihei HI
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Original Message:
Sent: 06-04-2013 18:42
From: Tom Dillenbeck
Subject: Design Drawings vs. Shop Drawings

The designer is obligated to their client via an agreed upon contract. It's probably rare to see the level of detail you're looking for defined in contract unless there is an agreed upon Deliverable scope detail.
I wonder why the fabricator wouldn't be paid for the effort to complete a design when the lacking design should be evident in the documents they had to bid the job. If they are given adequate time to bid the job and provided documentation, this design effort should be a known part of their coordination effort.

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Tom Dillenbeck AIA
Project Architect
Hobbs & Black Associates, Inc.
Ann Arbor MI
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While there may not be a strict definition of design drawings, the acceptable standard we apply either in the role as design architect or owner's rep/supervising architect is:
"Design drawings shall clearly delineate all dimensions and details sufficient to allow for fabrication and installation of all elements and components of the work".
This is different from "shop drawings" which are a contractor's interpretation of our details.

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Burton L. Roslyn, FAIA
President
Roslyn Consultants, LLC
Roslyn Heights, New York
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Original Message:
Sent: 06-03-2013 15:25
From: Kate Svoboda-Spanbock
Subject: Design Drawings vs. Shop Drawings

This message has been cross posted to the following Discussion Forums: Project Delivery and Interior Architecture Committee .
-------------------------------------------
As part of our practice, we sometimes manage aspects of other firm's interior design projects.

The issue has arisen numerous times that the interior design firms fail to actually design a furnishing item, providing instead a general description of size and finish and a catalog cut of another furnishing, more often than not of a completely different type (detail on a piece of hardware to be turned into a mirror frame, for example) or at least completely different proportions. This puts the fabricator in the position of actually having to design the furnishing item, without getting paid for that work, while the designer is being paid for it and not doing it.

I have been looking for some language that clearly defines what information is required for a detail drawing of this type. There is plenty available concerning what shop drawings aren't, but not a lot that I could find clarifying what design drawings are.

Anybody know where I can quickly get ahold of such language?

Thanks!

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Kate Svoboda-Spanbock AIA, CID
Principal
HERE Design and Architecture
Los Angeles CA
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I completely agree with Tom D's response. The Bidder should have every opportunity to provide adequate pricing for design, however, the pricing for that service may be higher than if a design professional provided that service. Personally I don't think I would want an Interior Designer developing fabrication level drawings.
Having said that if an Architect is providing a role of managing or supervising the work of an interior designer, either directly or indirectly, they should have a copy of the Agreement with Owner and should know the ID requirements for delivery, not unlike administration of a contract for construction. Additionally, if your Owner/Agreement requires you to manage an Owner's consultant you may have a fiduciary responsibility to advise the Owner and perhaps suggest an appropriate solution. At the very minimum addition of language to the ID Contract Documents that clearly deliniate the design responsibility of the Bidder.
It ultimately comes down to contractual responsibilies, i.e. what does the ID contract require? They may have an obligation to the Architect that they are not fulfilling thus entitling you to additional compensation as well.


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J. Foard Meriwether AIA
Director of Operations
HOK- Tampa, FL
Tampa FL
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Original Message:
Sent: 06-04-2013 22:38
From: Burton Roslyn
Subject: Design Drawings vs. Shop Drawings

While there may not be a strict definition of design drawings, the acceptable standard we apply either in the role as design architect or owner's rep/supervising architect is:
"Design drawings shall clearly delineate all dimensions and details sufficient to allow for fabrication and installation of all elements and components of the work".
This is different from "shop drawings" which are a contractor's interpretation of our details.

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Burton L. Roslyn, FAIA
President
Roslyn Consultants, LLC
Roslyn Heights, New York
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Original Message:
Sent: 06-03-2013 15:25
From: Kate Svoboda-Spanbock
Subject: Design Drawings vs. Shop Drawings

This message has been cross posted to the following Discussion Forums: Project Delivery and Interior Architecture Committee .
-------------------------------------------
As part of our practice, we sometimes manage aspects of other firm's interior design projects.

The issue has arisen numerous times that the interior design firms fail to actually design a furnishing item, providing instead a general description of size and finish and a catalog cut of another furnishing, more often than not of a completely different type (detail on a piece of hardware to be turned into a mirror frame, for example) or at least completely different proportions. This puts the fabricator in the position of actually having to design the furnishing item, without getting paid for that work, while the designer is being paid for it and not doing it.

I have been looking for some language that clearly defines what information is required for a detail drawing of this type. There is plenty available concerning what shop drawings aren't, but not a lot that I could find clarifying what design drawings are.

Anybody know where I can quickly get ahold of such language?

Thanks!

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Kate Svoboda-Spanbock AIA, CID
Principal
HERE Design and Architecture
Los Angeles CA
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Kate,

Its not clear what audience  you need the information for!    Is it for contract language with the designers you work with or for the  fabricator.

In my opinion,   "Design Drawings" should provide enough information to record the idea ( Design Intent)  and provide all the information including drawings , specification and  standards,  so that the fabricator/builder  can make shop drawings and then fabricate the work.  If the fabricator is expected to finish the design this could be clarified in the specification.   Mock-up are another way.  working out a design.  There are many roads to solve this

The big problem Is being vague because a designers has no idea what they want  ,hiding behind design intent   and not expecting the fabricator/builder to get paid for their time and effort ferret out design intent 

If you are the "Architect of Record" maybe you need to get additional services to sort this out?

David

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David DeFilippo AIA
Tsoi/Kobus Associates; Cambridge, MA
Milton MA
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Original Message:
Sent: 06-03-2013 15:25
From: Kate Svoboda-Spanbock
Subject: Design Drawings vs. Shop Drawings

This message has been cross posted to the following Discussion Forums: Project Delivery and Interior Architecture Committee .
-------------------------------------------
As part of our practice, we sometimes manage aspects of other firm's interior design projects.

The issue has arisen numerous times that the interior design firms fail to actually design a furnishing item, providing instead a general description of size and finish and a catalog cut of another furnishing, more often than not of a completely different type (detail on a piece of hardware to be turned into a mirror frame, for example) or at least completely different proportions. This puts the fabricator in the position of actually having to design the furnishing item, without getting paid for that work, while the designer is being paid for it and not doing it.

I have been looking for some language that clearly defines what information is required for a detail drawing of this type. There is plenty available concerning what shop drawings aren't, but not a lot that I could find clarifying what design drawings are.

Anybody know where I can quickly get ahold of such language?

Thanks!

-------------------------------------------
Kate Svoboda-Spanbock AIA, CID
Principal
HERE Design and Architecture
Los Angeles CA
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Not sure about legal descriptive differences, but design drawings are "instruments of service," meaning that they are not a "product" in themselves.  They are instruments used to deliver a service, namely design service.  So whatever it takes to deliver the service is what is required.  I suppose if the service could be delivered using only verbal direction, that may suffice.

Shop drawings serve two purposes.  First, they are used by fabricators to actually manufacture the products.  This function is solely the responsibility and at the discretion of the manufacturer, who may not even need them.  The second purpose is to submit them to the designer for "review," not "approval."  The designer will review them for approximate compliance with the design intent and notify the fabricator of the completion of that review.  It is still the fabricator's responsibility to deliver a product that meets the intent of the architect's drawings however, even if the shop drawings fail to do so.  This language is typically included in the contracts with the GC and in the stamp that the architect places on the drawings at review.

So, what does this mean in your case?  That the interior designer is not mandated to delver design drawings at any predetermined level of detail, and so long as the fabricator is willing or coerced into doing the design themselves, then that's the way it will be.  Unfair, unethical?  Maybe.  Illegal are breach of contract?  I don't think so.

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Alan Burcope AIA, MBA, LEED AP
Architect
Finfrock Design, Inc.
Orlando FL
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Original Message:
Sent: 06-03-2013 15:25
From: Kate Svoboda-Spanbock
Subject: Design Drawings vs. Shop Drawings

This message has been cross posted to the following Discussion Forums: Project Delivery and Interior Architecture Committee .
-------------------------------------------
As part of our practice, we sometimes manage aspects of other firm's interior design projects.

The issue has arisen numerous times that the interior design firms fail to actually design a furnishing item, providing instead a general description of size and finish and a catalog cut of another furnishing, more often than not of a completely different type (detail on a piece of hardware to be turned into a mirror frame, for example) or at least completely different proportions. This puts the fabricator in the position of actually having to design the furnishing item, without getting paid for that work, while the designer is being paid for it and not doing it.

I have been looking for some language that clearly defines what information is required for a detail drawing of this type. There is plenty available concerning what shop drawings aren't, but not a lot that I could find clarifying what design drawings are.

Anybody know where I can quickly get ahold of such language?

Thanks!

-------------------------------------------
Kate Svoboda-Spanbock AIA, CID
Principal
HERE Design and Architecture
Los Angeles CA
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