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AIA Contract Docs transition to online service.....Again.

  • 1.  AIA Contract Docs transition to online service.....Again.

    Posted 11-15-2016 12:13 PM

    Does anyone else have trepidation about the AIA transitioning to online contracts docs, again? The first time the software was so buggy that is was a nightmare for months. However, another concern is that this online service will give the AIA access to all firms contracts and stores them on the cloud, which  anyone who follows the trials and tribulations of todays starlets and their naked photos knows is hardly a secure method of storage. 

    When the AIA tried this the first time my attorney was incredulous that the AIA would make such a move, both because of the lack of security but also because this gives the AIA full access to any firm's most sensitive information. He is friends with AIA counsel and called his buddy  to discuss and was told indeed this was the case and that, at the time, some Indian based tech firm would now hold all of our contracts in their cloud.

    I was forced onto the cloud with my renewal two or so years ago and had ongoing issues with the problem ridden software though toward the end of the first year it was working much more smoothly. When I went to renew I was told that I could renew cloud based or desktop so I happily switched to desktop which was cheaper and more secure. When I asked why both options were back on the table I was told that had always been the case which was certainly not true in my case. When I went back to the desktop I realized that all the contracts I had done on the cloud software the AIA had full access to but I did not which has given me problems as recently as last week and  did not endear the AIA or their software to me.

    Today I received an email and found to my chagrin that the AIA was once again forcing everyone to the cloud. I don't understand why the AIA is working so hard to fix a problem that did not exist.

    ------------------------------
    Nea Poole AIA
    Principal
    Poole & Poole Architecture, LLC
    Midlothian VA
    ------------------------------


  • 2.  RE: AIA Contract Docs transition to online service.....Again.

    Posted 11-16-2016 05:25 PM

    I agree with you totally.  Contracts were much easier when we would buy a binder full of them and simply copy them!!

    ------------------------------
    Douglas Tilley AIA
    Principal
    TKS Architects
    Mechanicsburg PA



  • 3.  RE: AIA Contract Docs transition to online service.....Again.

    Posted 11-16-2016 05:51 PM

    It appears to be cost/return driven which using the cloud vs. remote desktop seems to follow that trend.  I'm not happy with the cost or the limited access.  Supposedly the Cloud based access frees up some of that but working real time on remote server of internet connection is tedious and subject to security issues and potential unscheduled disruption.  Just wait for the first lost document!

    I am old enough to have enjoyed being able to pull a binder down and find the document!  It has now become yet more remote from the professional for reference and use.  I noted in response to the email from AIA that this was serving AIA & not AIA members needs!

    ------------------------------
    Robert Mauldin AIA
    Principal Architect, V.P.
    2KM Architects, Inc.
    Augusta GA



  • 4.  RE: AIA Contract Docs transition to online service.....Again.

    Posted 11-16-2016 06:42 PM

    I agree with Nea's concerns about security and I am very concerned about the mere practicality of using an online interface versus the simplicity of my desktop. I've had no problems for the past couple of years and found it quite convenient. In addition, I thought I looked up the cost per document a while ago and it was considerably more than what I've been paying with the limited document license I've used for years. Somehow that point is missing from the FAQs. It makes me wonder if architects will continue to use them or develop their own. I don't see the primary reason for the change as being user driven. There's something else going on if I had to guess. I don't see the reason for the change.

    ------------------------------
    Lee Calisti AIA
    Principal
    lee CALISTI architecture+design
    Greensburg PA



  • 5.  RE: AIA Contract Docs transition to online service.....Again.

    Posted 11-17-2016 08:20 AM

    Perhaps the Unknowing have yet again been led by Those Fascinated with the Latest Thing. IT and management magazines have pushed cloud-based software for well over a decade, transforming it from the possible to the unavoidable. Of course, when major disruptions occur in the vulnerable internet of the future, we'll be back to gathering firewood and wondering which greens are safe to pick and eat . . . "Google it to see . . . can't, the internet is down." For a brief video demonstration of the impact of Those Fascinated with the Latest Thing, search YouTube for Monty Python's "Machine that goes Ping." Until the internet goes down.

    ------------------------------
    Philip Kabza AIA
    Partner
    SpecGuy Specifications Consultants
    Mount Dora FL



  • 6.  RE: AIA Contract Docs transition to online service.....Again.

    Posted 11-18-2016 06:08 PM

    I think Nea's concern is well taken. We just renewed the AIA documents software, and chose the desk top version to renew. We will not risk the confidentiality of our clients' data on someone else's computer (which is what the cloud really is). So, when AIA moves to cloud based being the only option, we will do something else - they will lose us as a customer.

    There is another security concern: the federal courts require you to keep your electronic records for five years. You have no control in the cloud. We use a corporate version of gmail. We have tried back-up software. It doesn't work. So if Google goes down, we have lost our electronic record. We make paper copies of all because of this - not good for the tree huggers. As an aside, we first computerized all bu the drawings in 1978, and the drawings in 1981. We have lost archived electronic files due to the fragility of the media, when we changed software. We have only managed to maintain our data base.

    There is also the consideration of cost as mentioned by others, which in my opinion is the real reason for cloud based software and data storage. The entity hosting the software and data in the "cloud" can and does charge more and does so incrementally, where if you add it up, is more than you are currently paying, but you don't notice it until it is too late. The cloud income stream to the software vendor now becomes a steady periodic monthly income stream instead of a sometime purchase by architect customers anywhere from 3 to 6 years apart, depending upon the customers financial health.

    The AIA is not alone in this: Adobe systems is doing it, as is AutoDesk and many others like Microsoft. In effect, you are making software vendors your partner that gets paid even if you don't or can't, and is this partner is utterly uncontrollable. They can raise prices at will, and will. Adobe now costs MORE, and if you don't or can't pony up, you are cut off.

    The old saw is that architecture is a "feast or famine business". In good times, one can afford to upgrade equipment, software, etc. In bad times, one can't. Cloud based software and data will put you in the position of having to pay the cloud first, even if it causes you to lose even more money in bad times. Its bad for the architect, but good for the entity in the cloud. Think about "Open Office Software" (its free), and Unix based operating systems, as they are also free.

    With Adobe, there is no choice as they have a monopoly on PDF. With CAD software, we have abandoned AutoCad, because we have replaced it with much cheaper, one time cost software that makes AutoCad compatible files.

    ------------------------------
    Ladd Ehlinger AIA
    President
    Ehlinger & Associates PC
    Metairie LA



  • 7.  RE: AIA Contract Docs transition to online service.....Again.

    Posted 11-21-2016 07:32 PM

    Yes this will be an issue.  It is simply AIA doing their thing and ignoring the membership.  

    I am sure that it will be more expensive.

    AGC really expanded Con Docs several years ago as an alternative to AIA documents to make money and because the AIA docs were pushing responsibility from the architect to the contractor.  I helped represent the chapter in discussions with MBI and AIA Iowa produced a series of recommended amendments which addressed the issues.  A number of our public clients have switched to Con Docs based agreements,  I do not like them as well as the AIA documents.  I am not putting my company business in the cloud where it is easy to get to.

    My hope is that Con Docs do not go to the web-based.  I for one will make the switch, not happy but AIA is abandoning us.

    ------------------------------
    Robert Carlson AIA
    Principal
    Carlson Design Team PC
    Iowa City IA



  • 8.  RE: AIA Contract Docs transition to online service.....Again.

    Posted 11-18-2016 10:20 AM

    Everyone has raised very valid points. I do think this is potentially a play by the AIA to both collect more fees and to exert more control but it ignores the reality of the reliability of the internet. Ironically as I tried to log onto the AIA to post this I kept getting an error message which kept me off the site for about 30 minutes.

    A very practical  problem beyond all security concerns I experienced before and see coming with this is that one has to be on the internet to work on a contract. If you are out of the office this is not always possible. If one's internet is down, too bad you cannot get your work done.

    I think this is a real mistake by the AIA and does push architects, if not clients, to come up with their own contracts. In my area of practice, multi-family, I have been surprised by the number of clients in the past few years who have come up with custom contracts. Before the recession we had one client with a totally custom contract. Right now it is about half of our clients. Part of this is clearly developers and their attorneys deciding to skew contracts are far in their favor as they can and part is probably the difficulty of contracts with the AIA.

    Again, I think the AIA is solving a problem that did not exist and servicing a need that is not there. I wish they would listen to their membership on issues such as this.

    ------------------------------
    Nea Poole AIA
    Principal
    Poole & Poole Architecture, LLC
    Midlothian VA



  • 9.  RE: AIA Contract Docs transition to online service.....Again.

    Posted 11-18-2016 10:51 PM

    Not certain what the AIA has in mind and that is the problem I have had trying to work with their on-line contracts. It is a bit of a problem.

    The last time I paid for the convenience of developing a contract on-line I lost my money.

    and that is how it seemed, like a gamble.

    ------------------------------
    [Jack] [Hillbrand] [Architect]
    [Proprietor]
    [Jack Hillbrand Architect_STUDIO 1323]
    Santa Monica] [CA]



  • 10.  RE: AIA Contract Docs transition to online service.....Again.

    Posted 11-21-2016 05:23 PM

    Since it's also possible to edit the contract documents offline, then there should be no for constant internet access.  Please see items #9 and #10 in this document for more information: http://acdpages.aia.org/rs/926-JCZ-725/images/AIA%20Contracts%20Software%20Transition%20FAQs_11_15_16.pdf

     

     

    Best regards,

    Brian Smith,
    AIA
    Director BIM Services Group
    image001.png@01CED0C0.44DF5BB0

    M+W U.S., Inc. – A Company of the M+W Group
    Mobile +1-312-560-3499

    mailto:brian.smith@mwgroup.net, www.usa.mwgroup.net

    image001.png@01CED0C0.44DF5BB0

     

     






  • 11.  RE: AIA Contract Docs transition to online service.....Again.

    Posted 11-21-2016 06:04 PM

    Nea,

    You've said it well. It was not presented in a "we're doing this to make your life better" manner. This is clearly to their advantage and not to the users. They'll see what happens when they launch it and users drop radically. What's funny about these decisions is there ARE other options.

    ------------------------------
    Lee Calisti AIA
    Principal
    lee CALISTI architecture+design
    Greensburg PA



  • 12.  RE: AIA Contract Docs transition to online service.....Again.

    Posted 11-21-2016 08:06 PM

    Well said Nea!  The AIA continues to try and take more from us.  It may be time to think about canceling.

    ------------------------------
    Thomas Robinson, AIA
    Nashville, TN



  • 13.  RE: AIA Contract Docs transition to online service.....Again.

    Posted 11-22-2016 06:46 AM

    To quote the latest AIA marketing campaign " I'm Bill Taylor and I am the AIA"

    That being said I request that the membership be polled to determine if the cloud based only solution to contract documents is what "WE" the AIA  really want.

    It is, after all, OUR organization designed to represent "US" and "I" do not want to be chained to a cloud based only solution to contract documents.

    If the AIA is to serve my needs as a member, and it seems the needs of quite a few others, than I feel that it should offer both platforms.

    Put it to a vote and let's see the actual response simple questions

    1.  Desktop only

    2.  Cloud only

    3.  Desktop and Cloud options

    ------------------------------
    William Taylor AIA
    President
    William Taylor Architecture
    Syracuse NY



  • 14.  RE: AIA Contract Docs transition to online service.....Again.

    Posted 11-22-2016 05:52 PM

    Bill...an excellent suggestion, poll the membership, how novel!. Does the AIA monitor these groups? I have been heartened reading some of the comments because I have never felt the AIA was a group working in my best interest as an architect and small business owner the way the ABA or AMA works for lawyers and doctors. This contract debacle (to be) is a perfect example.

    What are alternate contracts people use?

    Thanks.

    ------------------------------
    Nea Poole AIA
    Principal
    Poole & Poole Architecture, LLC
    Midlothian VA



  • 15.  RE: AIA Contract Docs transition to online service.....Again.

    Posted 11-28-2016 01:16 PM

    I agree with Bill Taylor's suggestion that the member users be polled to determine their preferences. 

    I further suggest that the AIA team that's planning the cloud-only system roll out prepare a succinct summary that honestly identifies its pros and cons – much as many of us do to assist our clients in picking from different design options.  This would educate the membership on the proposal and better inform the preference vote, when it is formally solicited.

     

    M. Russel Feldman, AIA, NCARB, Principal

    TBA Architects, Inc.

    43 Bradford Street Suite 300

    Concord, MA 01742

    Office   (781) 893-5828

    Mobile (617) 429-5033

     

    A+ Accredited by the Better Business Bureau

     






  • 16.  RE: AIA Contract Docs transition to online service.....Again.

    Posted 11-28-2016 01:19 PM

    Bill

     

    I think your suggestion is an excellent one.  Thank you for your thoughts.  I do not recall being asked if this was a good idea to trust the cloud with all of our firm's sensitive information.  We go to great lengths to keep our digital information secure within our own proprietary servers.  I know as a firm this is simply not an option for us to contemplate.

     

    I think membership means participation, so let us participate.  I will bring this to the attention of our local chapter and ask that we push this agenda forward.  It is important for our success as a business entity.

     

    Thank you for your thoughts on this.  I appreciate it.

     

    Ernest Ulibarri, AIA, LEED AP
    Project Director

    Davis, Carter, Scott Ltd

    8614 Westwood Center Drive | Suite 800 | Tysons, VA 22182
    T: 703.556.9275 | D: 571.620.7891 | C: 703.283.3364 | www.dcsdesign.com
     






  • 17.  RE: AIA Contract Docs transition to online service.....Again.

    Posted 11-22-2016 10:29 AM

    We certainly agree with what is being said on this thread. ??After using AIA contracts for 50 years being forced to keep my contracts in the cloud would cause me to look at other available options.


    Kent Worden AIA

    Principle


    ARENCO, Inc.

    Amherst, NH






  • 18.  RE: AIA Contract Docs transition to online service.....Again.

    Posted 11-22-2016 02:09 PM

    First, in the interest of full disclosure, I am a member of the Contract Documents Committee entering the tenth of my required ten year commitment to that endeavor.  I also happen to be the current chair.  As such, I have seen the desktop software reach maturity and the cloud-based software develop from its earliest conceptualization.  I can assure you that all of the concerns I’ve seen voiced in this forum were debated at length by the committee and staff as this project progressed.  I will also say that as a practicing architect I completely understand the sentiment against changing perfectly serviceable tools.

    That being said, there are numerous sound reasons for the decisions that have been made.  First and foremost was to address member needs.  The number one complaint with the desktop software is its incompatibility with the Mac OS.  Many of our members are Mac users and the inability to run ACD4 in the Mac environment either prevented them from benefiting from the Committee’s work, or forced them to buy a PC just to access that content.

    Second, the AIA is certainly not alone in their plans to move their software entirely to the cloud, it’s happening everywhere – Adobe has already been mentioned, add to that list Microsoft Office and many Autodesk products that we as architects regularly use. Consider that many of the most important interactions you conduct already occur in the cloud – your banking, many email services and for some even their accounting systems are all cloud based.

    Of course that begs the “if everyone else is jumping off a cliff…” question. Both the Committee as a whole and I individually were initially skeptical about the cloud system as well, but our concerns have been addressed by empowering the online version with some of the most advanced technology for Internet security available today. ACD5 servers and databases reside in private cloud and data centers hosted by the top-tier leader Gartner Magic Quadrants for Cloud enabled Managed Hosting. For added security, they are protecting our confidential information using a 2-factor authentication process powered by SecureAuth. This 2-factor authentication combines standard security credentials, such as username and password, with secondary information specific to you (phone, email) to ensure that access is granted securely and appropriately.  Fundamentally, this is the same authentication process that Apple has introduced to protect your Apple ID and credit card information when you buy apps for your iPad.

    Keep in mind, your local system is not infallible. I’m aware of many local systems getting infected with ransom-ware and people either paying the price to regain access or losing all of their data. That being said, if I choose, I don’t have to keep any of my contracts stored in the cloud, I can simply download them to my local server and delete the online version.

    Also, we were forced to download a new version of the software each time a new document was released, which frankly was a hassle. In the cloud-based version, the docs are always the latest versions.

    Have there been some challenges along the way?  Of course.  Software engineering is challenging under the simplest of circumstances and when there are legitimate security concerns it is even more so.  The latency issues that many beta users experienced (myself included) were a directly attributable to addressing those concerns, but I believe those challenges are behind us.

    ------------------------------
    Kevin Miller AIA
    GSBS Architects
    Salt Lake City UT



  • 19.  AIA Contract Documents

    Posted 11-28-2016 01:15 PM
    As a long time user of Contract Documents, I’ve weathered the changes and multiple iterations of the software and the delay in updates, glitches, and other incompatibilities from the perspective of a sole proprietor. I currently use mac hardware and have had no issues with using the desktop version via VMware Fusion. This change is both unnecessary and a further challenge for users such as myself who have paid significantly for the limited use of the software over the years. If cloud based is the only option, I will likely look elsewhere or begin to write my own documents rather than continue to learn new software with new challenges in a new cloud based environment. It sounds like many others share these views and causes me to truly wonder why the AIA is changing software for us the users without our support or input. The leadership doesn’t appear to be concerned about us the members on this issue.

    Ernest Holmes AIA


  • 20.  RE: AIA Contract Docs transition to online service.....Again.

    Posted 11-28-2016 01:19 PM

    All

    I'm Trying to follow this issue  for our office.  I would like to read what the AIA Contract Docs says about this upcoming change.  Is there a description floating around.

    ------------------------------
    David DeFilippo AIA
    Architect
    Tsoi/Kobus & Associates, Inc.
    Cambridge MA



  • 21.  RE: AIA Contract Docs transition to online service.....Again.

    Posted 12-07-2016 05:04 PM

    David:

    This was the message I received.

    While it’s still a few months away, we want to make you aware of a big change coming in 2017. On your next renewal date in 2017, you will no longer be able to renew our desktop software. As customers’ needs change, AIA Contract Documents sometimes finds it necessary to discontinue certain products and services to ensure we continue to provide innovative and cost-effective solutions to our customers. To this end, as of December 31, 2017, AIA Contract Documents desktop software will be sunsetted and no longer supported. As your renewal date nears, you will be asked to move to the AIA Contract Documents online-based service (ACD5), where you can access your documents anytime, anywhere, from any computer.

    ACD5 should seem familiar, as it was designed to provide a user experience similar to the desktop software. Additionally, ACD5 now includes a new editor, works with any browser, and requires no additional downloads. Plus, since ACD5 isn’t desktop software, it’s Mac compatible.

    As a Limited License customer, we recommend one of two ACD5 options:

    • Unlimited: Finalize as many documents as you need in one year with a purchase of Unlimited 1-User or Unlimited Multi-User product.
    • Documents-on-Demand Plus: No need to estimate future document usage; simply purchase the document one at a time, when you need it. Each purchased document can only be finalized one time, but you will have access to it for a full year.

    Find out more at one of our transition webinars
    Dates: November 3, 17 and December 1
    Time: 2:00 - 3:00pm EST

    ------------------------------
    Nea Poole AIA
    Principal
    Poole & Poole Architecture, LLC
    Midlothian VA



  • 22.  RE: AIA Contract Docs transition to online service.....Again.

    Posted 12-07-2016 05:10 PM

    Kevin:

    Thanks for your thoughtful response and kudos for agreeing to be on a committee with such a long commitment!

    If I may, let me ask a question. Is there any reason the AIA cannot continue to offer both versions? Let the members decide what works best for them.

    ------------------------------
    Nea Poole AIA
    Principal
    Poole & Poole Architecture, LLC
    Midlothian VA



  • 23.  RE: AIA Contract Docs transition to online service.....Again.

    Posted 12-08-2016 04:47 PM

    The AIA Contract Documents desktop software was developed in 2004 on what is now an outdated platform that needs constant patches to keep it operational. Each new version of Microsoft Windows and Microsoft Office has increased the number of technical issues customers experience. At this point, the software would need a complete overhaul to bring it into compliance with the latest software development techniques and standards, and this would be a huge project with major financial implications, all without addressing the needs of iOS users.

    The move to the online environment is intended to provide a better product for AIA members - one that was operating system agnostic, one that could work on a variety of hardware products and one that worked when you were in the office, on the train or on a plane. We truly believe that the online version will ultimately deliver an improved user experience for everyone.

    ------------------------------
    Kevin Miller AIA
    GSBS Architects
    Salt Lake City UT



  • 24.  RE: AIA Contract Docs transition to online service.....Again.

    Posted 12-10-2016 12:52 PM

    Please put the investment into overhauling the desktop version then.

    For myself, I do not like the ongoing efforts by every software vendor push me into their cloud. I like my data right where it is now. I like having my tools on my own machine. I like being able to work without having to be connected. I like my independence.

    ------------------------------
    Rudolph Beuc AIA
    Architect
    R. Beuc Architects
    Saint Louis MO



  • 25.  RE: AIA Contract Docs transition to online service.....Again.

    Posted 12-12-2016 07:54 PM

    Mr. Miller's response to this thread seems to indicate that the member committee most responsible for this action knew very well that there would be numerous objections to going to the cloud-based software. They knew that if polled, a vast majority of users would prefer the desktop version and yet the AIA chose not to heed that preference. It seems abundantly clear that they are not interested in what the members want. They are marketing a product for the purpose of making a profit. They feel there is sufficient market for their product so that we will continue to use the product in spite of its shortcomings, and they are probably right. The alternatives are few and they know they have a captive audience.

    If they were interested in pleasing the membership they would have polled them. If they wanted what is best for us, they would make efforts to improve the delivery of the product rather than telling us why what they offer is safe, good enough, and everyone is doing it. I believe the product (contracts and other content) is superior to any out there, but the delivery method is a tremendous problem.

    Now the AIA has the perfect solution for THEM. It makes upgrades easier, profits are maximized, data can be mined at will, and we as members can do little or nothing about it. We get an inferior product, pay only slightly "discounted" prices, we make our data available for their use at will, we get a sluggish and buggy platform, but no one really cares about what we want or what are going through. (If we are lucky, they might even offer to sell the mined data back to us... for a price.)

    This is exactly the kind of thing the AIA was created to help us with. They should be helping our members with solutions too costly to develop on our own. It takes a large amount of capital to create software solutions, so they know most of us cannot begin to develop our own software. They have the capital, data, legal expertise and the history of trial experience regarding the language of the contracts which most of us do not have. Unfortunately, they also know they can use that information and knowledge base to take advantage of their members financially. It is a despicable move to ignore those who have put you in a position like this - who literally pay their salary - in order to make even more profits out of our desperate need for help... as if the millions we pay annually in dues is not enough. It makes me want to join those who have left the organization altogether. If they will treat their membership this way, what good is it?

    I would hope this discussion gives the decision-makers at the AIA reason to reconsider their entire approach to serving their members. I hope they will begin thinking of ways to better serve their members, not take advantage of them. I hope they will begin to see their position as a responsibility to become responsive to the needs of the membership at large. The offering of documents has the potential to meet one of the most basic needs of our membership. The question remains, will they genuinely listen and try to meet the need in the best way, or just do what they want as they milk the membership for additional revenues? So far it seems the later is the disappointing choice they have made.

    ------------------------------
    Gary Nicholson
    Nashville TN



  • 26.  RE: AIA Contract Docs transition to online service.....Again.

    Posted 12-30-2016 06:16 PM

    I read Mr. Nicholson's response when it was posted and could not agree more. It gave me and my partner a lot to think about these past few weeks. The AIA is clearly doing this for reasons other than addressing the needs or wants of the membership. I seriously doubt any member is clamoring to have their most private information spread across the "cloud". Given the one BILLION Yahoo accounts hacked, the DNC hacking, Wikileaks, and any of a number celebrity nude photos made public etc. this is clearly not a move that will make our proprietary information more protected; rather it puts our most sensitive information at risk. It is further discouraging to learn through this conversation chain that the AIA has considered mining our contracts for information once they have access to them.

    I have discussed this with my architectural attorney who was as surprised as we are that the AIA is proceeding with this. Unfortunately his opinion is that the AIA contracts are the only ones to go with for full protection at this point so staying off the cloud seems impossible for our company. However, pressure from the membership can change the course of the AIA. This past month I received notice from the Virginia AIA that they are phasing out the dreaded supplemental dues because of the negative feedback they have received. I would suggest that anyone who is opposed to this move let the AIA, local and national, know your feelings and, perhaps more importantly, educate your peers about what is going on. I suspect most member have no idea this is happening or of the implications of this move. As our firm moves forward one change we will make is under Article 11 Compensation section 11.1 of the B101 we will always put "See Attachment A -Fee Proposal" so that we are not sharing our fee structure with the AIA.

    Our firm has not come to a final decision but our principals are leaning strongly towards leaving the AIA and no longer paying dues for any employee. As a member of the AIA and small business owner I have long felt ignored by my professional organization so perhaps this loss of memberships will have more impact than anything I could say.

    I would be interested to know how others are planning to address this.

    Also, thanks for the many responses. I have truly appreciated the thoughts and insights.

    ------------------------------
    Nea Poole AIA
    Principal
    Poole & Poole Architecture, LLC
    Midlothian VA



  • 27.  RE: AIA Contract Docs transition to online service.....Again.

    Posted 01-03-2017 11:59 AM

    Like many, I am a one hoarse shop.

    The cost structure and direction AIA contracts are going make them an untenable solution for my business.

    I will be looking elsewhere.

    ------------------------------
    Rudolph Beuc AIA, NCARB, CBO
    Architect
    R. Beuc Architects
    Saint Louis MO



  • 28.  RE: AIA Contract Docs transition to online service.....Again.

    Posted 01-04-2017 06:49 PM

    Given that virtually every official AIA meeting I've attended recently has started with some restatement of the AIA-Department of Justice Anti-Trust Agreement (I exaggerate, but the reciting is not infrequent), I think that if the AIA did harvest information about fees from data in the cloud, the repercussions would be severe.

    ------------------------------
    Joel Niemi AIA
    Joel Niemi Architect
    Snohomish, WA



  • 29.  RE: AIA Contract Docs transition to online service.....Again.

    Posted 01-06-2017 05:02 PM

    Joel:

    You bring up an interesting point. I am aware of the issue with the AIA anti-trust agreement and the impact this had upon architect's fees. I have wondered many, many times how we are stuck decades later still getting lectures while realtors in every state where I have lived all charge 6% with some minor exceptions. Even standard contract forms have the 6% already filled in. My best guess is they have better lobbyists! :-)

    ------------------------------
    Nea Poole AIA
    Principal
    Poole & Poole Architecture, LLC
    Midlothian VA



  • 30.  RE: AIA Contract Docs transition to online service.....Again.

    Posted 01-06-2017 05:17 PM
    This is ridiculous. Why does the world hate architects so much.

    No problem for Realtors to charge set range of 3-6% of sale value.

    Or attorneys and doctors to have PUBLISHED rates.

    What the hell is going on in our "profession."

    Tara Imani, AIA, NCIDQ, ASID, CSI
    Registered Architect + Interior Designer

    Tara Imani Designs, LLC
    10333 Richmond Avenue, Suite 170
    Houston, TX 77042

    Work/Mobile Ph: 832-723-1798

    www.taraimanidesigns.com




  • 31.  RE: AIA Contract Docs transition to online service.....Again.

    Posted 01-10-2017 08:55 PM

    Tara:

    I completely agree. It makes no sense at all.

    ------------------------------
    Nea Poole AIA
    Principal
    Poole & Poole Architecture, LLC
    Midlothian VA



  • 32.  RE: AIA Contract Docs transition to online service.....Again.

    Posted 01-11-2017 07:25 PM
    As I recall, in the olden days, before the first legal action by the DOJ, part of the AIA code of conduct was the requirement that AIA members had to charge at least the minimum rate shown in a schedule published by the AIA. 

    So, if 15% was the required fee (minimum) for a custom residence, you could be bounced out of the AIA if you were to charge 12 or 14%.

    I think the key there was that the Institute required a certain fee level.  That is different from real estate brokers and agents always charging 6%, because there certainly are some who might only extract 5%, and not lose their "Realtor (R)" membership.

    ------------------------------
    Joel Niemi AIA
    Joel Niemi Architect
    Snohomish, WA
    ------------------------------



  • 33.  RE: AIA Contract Docs transition to online service.....Again.

    Posted 01-11-2017 08:50 PM
    Hi Joel,

    Then surely we can overcome the issues of the 1970's case and start a NEW 21st C dialogue on what are reasonable fees given new technology and work structures.

    Have you read Peggy Deamer and Phil Bernstein's book "Building (in) the Future- Recasting Labor in Architecture" or do you follow @arch_lobby on Twitter.  

    Here's a video I just found via Google search of Peggy giving a TEDx talk in California in 2014 (when I was preoccupied w ISIS): https://youtu.be/joD3ksS3FjQ

    There are a confluence of issues adversely affecting our profession: aging folks (35-60+) needing to learn new software or other skills, a savvier client unwilling to pay "nebulous" design fees (as they don't value the time it takes to research, shop, draw, design), and Millennials thinking the world owes them a minimum salary of $50k out of school. 

    Yikes, I don't know how to solve this. But we must find a way to distill it down and have a legal, rational discussion about the future livelihood of this profession.

    Kind regards,

    Tara Imani, AIA, NCIDQ, ASID, CSI
    Registered Architect + Interior Designer 

    Tara Imani Designs, LLC
    10333 Richmond Avenue, Suite 170
    Houston, TX 77042

    Work/Mobile Ph: 832-723-1798








  • 34.  RE: AIA Contract Docs transition to online service.....Again.

    Posted 11-28-2016 01:18 PM

    In past I have written to AIA national directly regarding AIA contract forms…  and encouraged them to take a ‘long game’ view that is in direct opposition to how the issue has been treated in the last decade or so.  I have also written about this on various LinkedIn discussion boards and other fora.  

    In short – instead of chasing short term profits from use of AIA formats, the entire set of documents should be provided to members gratis, and to others on a nominal basis.  I will explain my reasons below.

    It is interesting to note that despite having written to national, on more than one occasion, I have never received a direct response, or acknowledgement that my memos were received.  This lack of common courtesy to a constituent is not a positive indicator that national views its individual members as being important.


    The point I tried to make to AIA on this particular issue is simple, and needs some historical context.  The AIA formats were first widely used and became the industry standard at a time when there were no competitors.  Now there are several other groups that compete for 'standard’ contract format dominance.  As a result the AIA is losing (or has already lost) its leadership position in this area.

    Because forms became more costly over time they were bootlegged by designers, owners and builders (simply because it is so simple to cut and paste or 'borrow' language from them, or to re-use old contracts making hand-markings and copying, etc.).  Attorneys also regularly borrow language from AIA formats, incorporating them into formats they generate for their clients.  I can't tally the number of contracts I've seen over the years that were either obvious 'stolen' forms or patch-worked contracts with provisions directly copied from AIA formats.

    The reality is that AIA does not seem to have any interest in chasing violators of its copyrights. Doing so would be costly, unwieldy, and likely do little but annoy everyone in the industry.  Additionally, because the AIA has not ‘enforced’ its copyrights diligently in past, it might not prevail in any single attempt to do so now.  Thus the idea of the AIA forms being copyrighted is, frankly, a joke.

    Yes, it does cost $ for the AIA's legal team to create and update the contract forms as design/construction law evolves (a never-ending process). But, with 80,000 members, the actual cost of supporting those efforts would seem to be a small amount per member annually. Without knowing more about the internal costing for the program, I can only say that it appears the AIA looks at its contracts primarily as a profit center (making more through sales than is required to actually support the cost to produce the forms).  As AIA contract costs (to members and others) increase, industry players are more inclined to consider using forms promoted by other organizations... and the AIA loses more market share.

    I think the AIA would be well served to look at this from a different perspective.  By giving away the forms to members, and charging more reasonable rates to non-members, the AIA would directly encourage use of AIA formats over competing formats.  The long game would be to re-bolster wider utilization of AIA forms, increase the AIA's 'image' as the dominant player, and ultimately garner greater benefits for the AIA membership at large.  

    Keep in mind that purportedly the AIA’s mission is to increase the professional image and status/power of Architects, such that they will continue to be seen as leaders (and indispensable advisors to owners of property).  I do not know to what extent the AIA’s contract program is a net profit center…  but in my opinion it should be viewed first with an eye toward how it advances the association’s long term objectives, not in terms of any short term economic advantages.

    The questions I ask myself are why other organizations have made so much headway ‘against’ the AIA’s original domination in the contract field, and how can the AIA re-assume it’s unquestioned leadership position.  Free use of contract forms as an integral membership benefit should definitely be on the radar.  This would bring membership benefits more in line with other organizations to which I have belonged over the past 50 years in this field.  Making AIA formats available to all industry players on a nominal basis – attorneys, contractors, et. al. – would seem to be a natural pathway to pursue. 

    Every time a competitor's format is used, AIA members suffer by consequence (loss of image).  If the AIA is serious about repositioning, and returning Architects (with a capital A) to their once-envied pedestal position, it should seek to again ensure that architect-friendly contracts are to the greatest extent entrenched as the industry default.  Doing so would be positive for all members, be great PR focused on non-member architects and other industry players, and speak volumes to owner consumers and attorneys.  

    Not mentioned above, but an important factor in members’ contract negotiations with Owners is that every time a non-standard AIA contract is proposed by a client it forces the Architect to spend money on attorneys (for review/editing and participation in resolving disputed provisions).  It is a direct bottom line consideration for every member when an Owner or attorney says they prefer a non-AIA format.  For this reason alone, the AIA should do what it can to ensure that using AIA formats is the most convenient and affordable option for all.  Ease of acquisition, use, editing and formalizing should be optimized.

    As to the subject of the original post here, I cannot understand why forms are not made available in more than one platform – hard copy, form download for future use at discretion, editable off-line use, as well as the newly-proposed cloud use for those that prefer that platform.   I have not seen any responses from the association as to why members should be forced to use a platform that is the preference of the administration but not the membership at large. 

    I have seen one recent response that focused, for the most part, on one factor – an assurance that the cloud is ‘safe’.  This is something that I cannot take to heart in light of the fact that in recent years we have been reminded repeatedly of breaches and system failures of even top secret security systems.  The only other justification was compatibility concerns (PC v. Mac), which would seem to be non-drivers in a world where conversion software is readily available.  I will not pretend to be an IT expert, but these two factors would not appear to justify doing anything that is not first desired by, and supported by the majority of users.  Based on posts so far, I do not see many members indicating they are thrilled by the idea of cloud-only use…  but I have seen logical concerns (including legal implications) that should be at the top of the list.   I, for one, do not do any cloud computing (contrary to the post’s supposition), for security reasons.  I simply do not like the idea that anyone might gain access to my personal/business documents or information via the cloud – by design or hacking.  Call me a dinosaur, but I think that should be a choice I make for myself, not one that another makes for me.

    On a last note, it would seem that the ‘program’ of continuous tinkering/changing of the system is what has driven its costs upward.  I wonder why, if older/simpler methods worked for the majority, why changes were needed.  The old adage is still relevant – if it ain’t broke don’t fix it.

    ------------------------------
    Howard Littman AIA, Emeritus
    Forensic Architect, Expert Witness
    Howard I. Littman, AIA
    Agoura Hills CA



  • 35.  RE: AIA Contract Docs transition to online service.....Again.

    Posted 11-30-2016 11:40 AM

    I appreciate Mr. Littman's comments and, for the most part agree.  Another thought, with regard to the AIA serving its base and the possibility of providing the documents for free.  Perhaps providing the documents could be connected to the educational requirements.  I am registered in several states (more than 20) the only one that I am familiar with that requires specific learning units regarding its building code is Florida.  This makes much sense to me as compared to the accumulation of multiple points for various 'educational opportunities' typically provided by vendors.  Suppose the AIA were to require 2 to 4 learning units per year with a focus on legal contracts.  A 'ladder' system could be established allowing, over time, members to receive a better education with regard to the legal issues involved in the profession.  Starting with the basics and building with more detail as a member progresses through his or her career.  This would have a huge advantage with regard to our profession's understanding of our legal requirements and put us, as an industry, in a better position to make our case and negotiate appropriate terms.  It would help to avoid putting an architect with a good understanding at a 'competitive disadvantage' to one who does not and may agree to contractual terms that are not, for lack of a better term, fair.  Understanding and being able to articulate contractual issues results in more fair agreements.  Too many professionals simply rely on the AIA documents, their attorney's advice, or "ignorantly' yield to a client's contractual demand rather than clearly understand the possible ramifications.

     

    Francis X. Watkins AIA, NCARB

    President

     

    Bignell Watkins Hasser

    Architects, PC

    One Park Place

    Suite 250

    Annapolis, Maryland 21401

     

    Washington Metro (301) 261-8228

    Annapolis (410) 224-2727

    Baltimore Metro (410) 841-6595

     

    Bignell Watkins Hasser Formal

     

     






  • 36.  RE: AIA Contract Docs transition to online service.....Again.

    Posted 12-01-2016 06:25 PM
    As a point of information, AIA Documents are the industry standard and sell, largely, to groups who are not members, such as building owners and attorneys.  They are also the second largest revenue stream for the Institute.  

    I understand that there are some who would like to see this offered free to members, but doing so will cause a significant hole in the budget.

    In terms of whether completed forms should be stored in the cloud, this has been discussed and vetted within the Institute (Contracts Committee and Board) since I served on the board from 2005-2010.  At the time, like now, there was concern expressed about the security of the documents.  There was a lso a sense that the Documents Committee could use the data as to what language was being edited in order to provide documents that were better suited for the marketplace.  At the time, it was decided not to have a central repository of the documents.  I am sure those discussions have continued over the years.  Perhaps someone from the Documents Department would provide some background on this decision.





  • 37.  RE: AIA Contract Docs transition to online service.....Again.

    Posted 12-01-2016 07:01 PM

    This raises an interesting point. 

    How many AIA members were aware that the AIA was monitoring their private contract edits? 

    This is disturbing at a minimum. 

    Wouldn't this be an invasion of private business practices? 

    It would seem this would raise legal issues if the members were not advised their contracts were being viewed/tracked by AIA administrators. 

    I would posit that members believed their private legal matters were 'private'.

    Whereas the AIA, in posts on this topic, have touted the 'privacy' and 'security' of the new cloud-based service, I did not see any mention of the fact that members' edits were going to be tracked (known to anyone other than the author).  Wow! 

    ------------------------------
    Howard I. Littman, AIA, Emeritus
    Forensic Architect, Expert Witness
    Agoura Hills, CA



  • 38.  RE: AIA Contract Docs transition to online service.....Again.

    Posted 12-01-2016 07:10 PM

    Mr. Hainsfurther, your post raises another question in my mind. 

    First you indicate the bulk of sales are to non-members.  Then you say that providing forms to members would blow a big hole in the budget.  I, for one, would be interesting in having more 'facts' in hand regarding the sales/revenue/budget numbers at stake, and the breakout of sales to members v. non-members.

    Lastly - as a point of information - in recent years contracts formulated by other organizations have made significant inroads as 'standard'.  If the AIA staff is not aware that this has occurred, some further research should be conducted into how much 'share' of the marketplace has been lost to competitors. 

    ------------------------------
    Howard I. Littman, AIA, Emeritus
    Forensic Architect, Expert Witness
    Agoura Hills, CA



  • 39.  RE: AIA Contract Docs transition to online service.....Again.

    Posted 12-07-2016 07:11 PM

    Sidebar, I cannot figure out how to edit a post. My apologies if you prefer Mr. Littman, no disrespect was meant and I would change my post if I could.

    ------------------------------
    Nea Poole AIA
    Principal
    Poole & Poole Architecture, LLC
    Midlothian VA



  • 40.  RE: AIA Contract Docs transition to online service.....Again.

    Posted 12-02-2016 05:43 PM
    Howard Littman:

    The AIA is not monitoring your edits, as far as I know.  There was discussion about that and it never came to pass, at least when I was on the Board.

    I cannot tell you the current distribution of member/non-member sales.  Perhaps someone on AIA staff can do that for you.






  • 41.  RE: AIA Contract Docs transition to online service.....Again.

    Posted 12-07-2016 04:59 PM

    Howard:

    The problem is that once the AIA holds all of our contracts on the cloud, they can. Current leadership may be beyond reproach but leadership changes and people can find many logical reasons they need to take unscrupulous actions. Moreover, my attorney was told the AIA is using an Indian cloud service. India is full of drafting/design/3d modeling companies. How can anyone possibly know whether or not the cloud service is enjoying a second revenue stream selling our information to competition? This is hardly a paranoid thought since companies from Apple, to google, to Facebook take any information they can cull about you and sell it.

    It is a fundamentally wrong decision the AIA took to unilaterally decide contracts would be in the cloud. That membership was not even surveyed (and I get a lot of AIA surveys) leads me to believe that there was intent there beyond what is stated.

    ------------------------------
    Nea Poole AIA
    Principal
    Poole & Poole Architecture, LLC
    Midlothian VA



  • 42.  RE: AIA Contract Docs transition to online service.....Again.

    Posted 12-04-2016 08:51 PM

    I agree that members should have free online access to all AIA contract documents. I "grew up" with the B141 and have in recent years found it challenging to figure out which document I should use for different small and limited scope projects or services. I like to be able to read every word of every article before committing to a particular form, and I have been frustrated at having to "buy" the form before seeing it. AIA should make these forms available at no cost for review and use by all members. Increase the dues if necessary; dues are more than high enough now, but paying the current high dues and then being faced with having to pay again for contracts that should be a member benefit adds insult to injury. AIA should recognize that the cost of these contract documents is driving members to create their own (less safe) documents or use other vendors' or client created documents. It may be accurate to say that most architects are in the profession to design buildings and not to consider legal technicalities, so if AIA offers these contract documents as scrutinized, tried, and true documents developed to serve its dues paying members, these contract documents should be a no-extra-cost benefit of membership. It seems that we are actually paying for those benefits, so we should be able to "enjoy" them.

    ------------------------------
    Albert Russell AIA
    Architect
    Albert R. Russell, Architect
    Milton VT