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The mission of the Historic Resources Committee (HRC) is to identify, understand, and preserve architectural heritage, both nationally and internationally. HRC is engaged in promoting the role of the historic architect within the profession through the development of information and knowledge among members, allied professional organizations, and the public.

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Pressed metal "tin" ceilings and fire resistance

  • 1.  Pressed metal "tin" ceilings and fire resistance

    Posted 11-17-2016 01:28 PM

    Hello all: I'm researching the modern applications of pressed-metal "tin" ceilings in existing (and new) buildings and I am interested in any information on code and fire-separation spec's along the following lines:

    *What is the commonly accepted fire separation rating of a historic pressed metal ceiling (applied to wood furring over three-coat plaster)? One hour? If poor or no plaster -- 1/2 hour?

    *Is it correct that removing a metal ceiling, then installing 5/8" Type X gypsum board as a subsurface, then re-installing the metal ceiling would improve the fire separation rating? If so, then to what rating or with what time gain?

    *What about adding non-combustible insulation (two to three times the thickness of a typical wall stud) to the floor cavity? Would this achieve a 30-45 minute gain in fire separation?

    NFPA does not seem to address this in their Historic Building guidelines. Any leads on or experience in dealing with this issues is much appreciated! Thanks -- Gordon (301-933-1071)

    Gordon H. Bock (AIA#30205161)

    National Archives Associates

    P.O. Box 668

    Kensington, MD 20895

    2024 HRC Taliesin West


  • 2.  RE: Pressed metal "tin" ceilings and fire resistance

    Posted 11-18-2016 05:41 PM

    Look at Sections 721 and 722 of the International Building Code to look at 'calculated' ratings of atypical assemblies.

     

    Tom Liebel, FAIA, LEED Fellow

    Principal

     

    Marks, Thomas Architects

    1414 Key Highway

    Baltimore, MD 21230

    Office 410 539 4300 (ex 3352)

    Direct Dial 410 400 7484

    Mobile 410 207 5997

     

    www.marks-thomas.com

     




    2024 HRC Taliesin West


  • 3.  RE: Pressed metal "tin" ceilings and fire resistance

    Posted 11-18-2016 05:50 PM
    Gordon,

    HUD published guidelines for fire ratings of archaic materials and assemblies in 1980 that were updated in 2000.  The National Trust has a PDF copy on their web site at <http://www.preservationnation.org/resources/disaster-recovery/additional-resources/HUD-Guidelines-on-Fire-Ratings-of-Archaic-Materials-and-Assemblies.pdf>.

    Plus, you can Google "fire ratings for archaic materials" and a variety of other resources will pop up. 

    John 
    _______________________________

    John A. Burns, FAIA, FAPT, LEED® AP
    Chief Appeals Officer, Cultural Resources
    Historic Preservation Tax Incentives Program
    National Park Service
    1201 I Street NW, Room 745
    Washington, DC 20005
    Voice:  202-354-2118
    FAX:  202-371-6485

    The National Park Service cares for special places 
    saved by the American people so that all may 
    experience our heritage.

    EXPERIENCE YOUR AMERICA




    2024 HRC Taliesin West


  • 4.  RE: Pressed metal "tin" ceilings and fire resistance

    Posted 11-18-2016 06:01 PM

    My go-to book is BOCA's Guidelines for Determining Fire Resistance Ratings of Building Elements, published by BOCA in 1994.  I don't seem to be able to find it on line.

    There are a few online resources you can turn to:

    HUD has this:

    http://www.preservationnation.org/resources/disaster-recovery/additional-resources/HUD-Guidelines-on-Fire-Ratings-of-Archaic-Materials-and-Assemblies.pdf

    and ICC has this: this: http://codes.iccsafe.org/app/book/content/PDF/2009/2009_Seattle/09seattle_existing/PDFs/Resource%20A_Guidelines%20on%20Fire%20Ratings%20of%20Archaic%20Materials%20and%20Assemblies.pdf

    Many of your approaches could work, but without more information, I can't advise you.  Good luck!

    ------------------------------
    Susan Turner FAIA
    Historic Preservation Leader
    Bailey Edward Design
    Chicago Illinois

    2024 HRC Taliesin West


  • 5.  RE: Pressed metal "tin" ceilings and fire resistance

    Posted 11-21-2016 07:50 PM

    For fire ratings of archaic materials like plaster on wood lath, see the International Existing Building Code, Resource A.  Many materials are included in its tables. For adding to existing construction to increase fire ratings, see the written guidance in this section, including 3.3 Theoretical Approach to calculating fire resistance according to Harmathy's Rules. It is for situations like the one you are describing.

    ------------------------------
    Donald Brubeck AIA
    Senior Associate
    Bassetti Architects
    Seattle WA

    2024 HRC Taliesin West


  • 6.  RE: Pressed metal "tin" ceilings and fire resistance

    Posted 11-18-2016 06:52 PM

    Gordon, do a google search for HUD fire ratings of archaic materials. This will bring you to a link of different assemblies, look at the floor ceiling assemblies to get the info that you are looking for. This information is sometimes included in existing building codes. Note that the pressed metal ceiling is considered decorative and would not provide any fire resistance.

     

    Peter Birkholz, AIA, LEED®AP
    Principal


    Page & Turnbull
    x imagining change in historic environments through design, research and technology

    417 Montgomery Street, 8th Floor, San Francisco, California 94104
    415.593.3226 (direct) 510.207.8061(cell)|  415.362.5154 (main) | 415.362.5560 (fax)
    birkholz@page-turnbull.com
    | www.page-turnbull.com

     

     




    2024 HRC Taliesin West


  • 7.  RE: Pressed metal "tin" ceilings and fire resistance

    Posted 11-19-2016 07:51 AM
    Check the HUD Guidelines for Fire Ratings of Archaic Materials and Assemblies. If you modify the existing assembly you will have to have the entire assembly comply with current UL or other rating agencies. Plaster is a great material and if it is intact, you should try to leave it as such.

    My gut feeling is the tin and plaster should get you one hour. If you are trying for 2 hour, a floor topping installed above may help.

    Regards,

    Jeffery T. Smith AIA, NCARB
    Architect/Partner
    Chianis + Anderson Architects, PLLC


    2024 HRC Taliesin West


  • 8.  RE: Pressed metal "tin" ceilings and fire resistance

    Posted 11-19-2016 02:33 PM
    We just worked on such a project. Antique metal ceiling over sleepers and joint with 2 layers of 3/4” wood on the 2nd Floor.

    In order to get the 2 hour fire separation required by the UBC (Michigan) or the “Existing Code” we have to sprinkle the building for 1 hour…

    and add 1 layer of 5/8”x Gyp Brd. over the metal ceiling for the other hour.


    Nelson Breech Nave, AIA, Architect
    nave-aia@mindspring.com


    2024 HRC Taliesin West


  • 9.  RE: Pressed metal "tin" ceilings and fire resistance

    Posted 11-21-2016 07:09 PM

    I meant to say 5/8"x gyp. Board under the metal ceiling (removed and reattached).  This is a long tedious process.  I wish there was a better solution as we reuse the remainder of the older buildings in our Cities.

    ------------------------------
    Nelson B. Nave AIA
    Owner
    Nelson Breech Nave, AIA Architect
    Kalamazoo MI

    2024 HRC Taliesin West


  • 10.  RE: Pressed metal "tin" ceilings and fire resistance

    Posted 11-21-2016 01:24 PM
    Check the HUD Guidelines for Fire Ratings of Archaic Materials and Assemblies. If you modify the existing assembly you will have to have the entire assembly comply with current UL or other rating agencies. Plaster is a great material and if it is intact, you should try to leave it as such.

    My gut feeling is the tin and plaster should get you one hour. If you are trying for 2 hour, a floor topping installed above may help.

    Regards,

    Jeffery T. Smith AIA, NCARB
    Architect/Partner
    Chianis + Anderson Architects, PLLC


    2024 HRC Taliesin West