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The mission of the Historic Resources Committee (HRC) is to identify, understand, and preserve architectural heritage, both nationally and internationally. HRC is engaged in promoting the role of the historic architect within the profession through the development of information and knowledge among members, allied professional organizations, and the public.

  • 1.  dating recessed downlight cans

    Posted 05-03-2018 05:24 PM
      |   view attached

    We are restoring an 1833 church ceiling which had recessed can downlights installed in the mid-20th century. A building permit card notes ceiling lighting work in 1949 with no specifics. The recessed cans are very simple steel cans accessible from the attic for re-lamping by simply removing the junction-box-fitted cap for access to the incandescent lamp. From below a ½" ring is fitted with concentric baffles.

    Can anyone date these downlights? Could they have been as early as 1949?

     

    Thank you.

     

    David W.Torrey,AIA

    TORREY                                                                              

    ARCHITECTURE

    75 Kneeland Street

    Boston, MA 02111

    617-227-1477 ext 111                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    

    david@torreyarchitecture.com

    www.torreyarchitecture.com

     

    2024 HRC Taliesin West


  • 2.  RE: dating recessed downlight cans

    Posted 05-04-2018 05:35 PM
    You might check this website:  Building Technology Heritage Library : Free Texts : Free Download, Borrow and Streaming : Internet Archive.  They archive PDF copies of old building product catalogs, including lighting manufactures.  If you can find a manufacturer's label on the existing fixture, that might narrow down the search.  If not, you could check manufacturer catalogs, from around, or just before the 1949 date. 

    For some reason, I thought recessed downlights were available in the 1930's, though maybe not used extensively until later.

    Hope that helps.

    ------------------------------
    J. Hairston AIA
    Senior Architect
    Gardner Architects
    Oklahoma City OK
    ------------------------------

    2024 HRC Taliesin West


  • 3.  RE: dating recessed downlight cans

    Posted 05-04-2018 11:14 PM

    David –

     

    Yes, they could date from the late 1940s.  Unless you can find a manufacturer's label or stamp (imprinted into the metal) on the fixtures, it may be difficult to confirm the specific product that your found at your project site.

     

    However, ads were printed in the April 1950 Architectural Record (page 337) and March 1947 Architectural Record (page 176) for recessed downlights manufactured by Century Lighting, Inc. of New York and Los Angeles.  The illustrations in the ads are similar in appearance but not exact matches to the fixtures in your photos.

     

    An archival copy of a General Electric Co. catalog published in 1949 (on page 140) includes product information for a "Curtis Round-Deep Housed Recessed Units" that are also similar in appearance.  See:  https://archive.org/details/GeneralElectricLighting  This site is maintained by the APT (Association for Preservation Technology) and contains copies of this and other archival catalogs related to building technology and related subjects.

     

    So:  It appears that recessed downlights were available as early as 1947 and those at your project site may date from that period.

     

    Good luck with your restoration project!

     

    Rob

     

    Robert A. Petito  AIA

    Senior Preservation Architect

    image001.png@01D1005C.E98CB900

    1232 Chancellor Street

    Philadelphia, PA 19107

    tel:  215.985.0400

    www.jacobswyper.com

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    2024 HRC Taliesin West


  • 4.  RE: dating recessed downlight cans

    Posted 05-05-2018 12:39 PM
      |   view attached
    David, this is a very interesting problem. It seems from about 1930 to the 1950s various recessed light fixtures were being patented. I haven't researched the manufacturers much yet. I tried Halo brand, since I've been using them for decades, but they are only 62 years old.So I tried Googling patents for recessed light fixtures. It took me to this category: F21S8/02. (F is for Mechanical Engineering, F21 is lighting, S is for Non-portable, 8/xx is for fixed install.) Hence, "F21S8/02 Lighting devices intended for fixed installation of recess-mounted type, e.g. downlighters." On this page of "Google Patents" I filled in the dates I was interested in under "Date Priority" as 1939-01-01 through 1950-01-01.
    The can light I've attached looks similar to yours and was invented by Arthur Roberts of the Colonnade Company. The original patent was filed: 1945-12-07. And like many of these I saw, it was refiled a few years later (Aug 1950) as a "Grant" US2518936A. 
    The interior of yours may have been retrofitted for a more modern bulb?  Roberts' design may not be the exact fixture you have, but keep looking. Also check out Grant US2649535A filed 1947-07-05 by Abraham H. Feder, as the box on the top of yours and the concentric baffles look similar to this. And over on the right of this Google page https://patents.google.com/?q=F21S8%2f02&before=priority:19510101&after=priority:19300101 you can search the chart for a possible manufacturer that might get you closer. 

    Good luck!
    Craig Mineweaser, AIA | Principal Preservation Architect
    Mineweaser & Associates
    architecture | preservation | building conservation services
    building forensic investigations | historical building evaluations
    Historic Structure Reports | Secretary of the Interior's Standards Reviews
    California Historical Building Code consulting
    acoustical design consulting | audio visual equipment consulting
    Craig@Mineweaser.com | www.mineweaser.com | T 209.928.5900 or 408-926-1900 | M 408.206.2990
    Offices in San Jose and Sonora
    Every building tells a story and every house holds a mystery!



    ------------------------------
    Craig Mineweaser AIA
    Mineweaser & Associates
    San Jose CA
    ------------------------------

    2024 HRC Taliesin West


  • 5.  RE: dating recessed downlight cans

    Posted 05-06-2018 10:53 AM
    Mr. Torrey ---
    Hello

    As an actual Baby Boomer ('46), I do remember those cans, especially the concentric rings!  While '49 sounds early to me, that was an explosive period for innovation, with Modernism reigning supreme.  And remember, lots of new ideas were developed in the '20s and '30s, but in the pre-war world's chaos, they never happened.

    Think of it....millions of military personnel lived in action, for years, surrounded by quickly-evolving technology, full of ideas and waiting for a chance to DO SOMETHING ("...imagination running wild...") with their ideas.  With the U.S. in '45 standing clear in a devastated world, where areas not devastated were generally in more traditional, localized economies, we were ready to explode with new things.  Just look at the post-War ('48 or so) car designs...

    About the old records:

    On-Site ---
    1.    Where?
    Old stuff, if kept, tends to get moved-around to less-convenient places, making room for more-current things.  So check areas at the top of stairs/scuttles, behind the later boxes.
    2.    Cozy files:
    We're all familiar with spray-in insulation guys, covering everything the Owner didn't move, or that didn't move by itself.  Look for "mounds" in the insulation.  In likely areas, even without mounds, if you have a safe-to-walk-on ceiling, go poking with a stick, along "pathways", etc.
    3.    Cellars, crawl-spaces:
    Hoping that moisture didn't do its thing, put on your grubbies and climb in.  On more that one occasion, I've found stuff behind walls, piers, etc.  My guess is, someone, told to throw-out "those boxes", hid them from inspecting honchos who were not about to go "horizontal spelunking" themselves, to check...
    If you see 2 green eyes lookin'-back at you, that's not a problem unless they're a foot apart and 8-feet above the floor...  Then you have a problem.  If they wink at you, you have a BIG problem!
    4.    Other buildings:
    Check the Church's schools, gyms, convents/rectories/parsonages, etc.  Catholic churches had rows of several garages for the priests; it can't hurt to check in there (nice, small attic spaces that no-one even thought about).  For buildings that have been sold-off, approach their owners, even though major clean-outs often occur after such purchases.  And, ever-so-rarely, buildings get moved.  Look for new foundations on the old buildings, and hold your breath...

    Off-Site ---
    1.    City/Town:
    Start by finding a friendly, helpful person, who can help you negotiate with, or get around, the officials, as you're seeking access to seek.  Same notations as above, for the hunting process.  One of the "scariest" situations, to me, is, the municipal offices are in a totally-different building, from the time period you're interested in.  Think, looking for info on a '50s project in Boston, where they moved to an all-new City Hall in +/- 1970.
    2.    Historic groups, museums:
    The folks that run such places universally have dreams, and materials, that exceed the display-capacity of their buildings, and their budgets, by factors of 3, to 20-or-more.  They could well have a load of stuff from Our Lady of the Horde Church, sitting someplace, possibly off-site, waiting for daylight.  Other than, maybe, a brief press-release when the stuff was given / received, there's no public mention of it.  Why?  Well, without space and funds to do something with this fifth-on-the-list project, why talk it up (other than to potential donors)?
    Who knows?...
    Maybe if you can help clean-up the file on O.L. Horde, you could get a tad-bit of publicity, and maybe bump the project up a notch on the Museum's list...

    Best of luck ---
    Bill
    william j. devlin aia, inc.,
    ARCHITECT
    Springfield, MA



    2024 HRC Taliesin West


  • 6.  RE: dating recessed downlight cans

    Posted 05-07-2018 01:39 PM

    David:

     

    I recommend the APT Building Technology Heritage Library as a good resource that might help you date the fixtures that you have at your building.  It is a collection of trade catalogues that has a search engine to help narrow your search of the library.  The "Pry-Lite" catalogue of fixtures from Pryne & Company, Inc., out of Pomona, Californig, came up on a search of "recessed fixtures". 

     

    The link is here:  http://www.apti.org/index.php?submenu=publications&src=gendocs&ref=APT_Building_Technology_Heritage_Library&category=Publications

     

    Good luck,

     

    Lonnie

     

    Lonnie J. Hovey, AIA, FAPT, NCARB | Associate, Historic Preservation

                                                                   

    Whitman, Requardt & Associates, LLP

    1500 Market Street

    East Tower, 12th Floor

    Philadelphia, PA  19102

    (Direct) 267.702.2010

    (Cell) 215.219.3755

    (Fax) 215.568.4722

     

    lhovey@wrallp.com

    www.wrallp.com

     


       

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    2024 HRC Taliesin West


  • 7.  RE: dating recessed downlight cans

    Posted 05-07-2018 03:26 PM
      |   view attached

    There are original recessed can lights at the cocktail bar at the Fred Harvey Restaurant (restaurant & cocktail bar interior designed by Mary Coulter) at Los Angeles Union Station (opened 1939).  We don't have any drawings of the light fixtures, but the 1939 interior photo of the cocktail shows them.  We're currently restoring the restaurant and the cans are similar to what David described at the church. 

     

    Jen Dunbar, AIA, LEED AP

    Senior Associate | Architect

     

    ARCHITECTURAL RESOURCES GROUP

    8 Mills Place, Suite 300 | Pasadena, CA 91105

    626.583.1401 x117 | 310.435.3928 cell | j.dunbar@arg-la.com 

    San Francisco | Pasadena | Portland

     

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    2024 HRC Taliesin West