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the egghead caucus?

  • 1.  the egghead caucus?

    Posted 15 days ago

    After three days at the Newport Jazz Festival.  If architecture is an experience, it is not frozen.  Each time it is affected by time of day, season, weather, and the prevailing feelings of the experiencer.  In that sense it is equivalent to composed music.  On the face of it, architecture's sequences are not as predictable as those of music.  But I wonder if the neuroscientists' understandings of how we know or remember music and architecture are in fact different.  Also, it appears that, unlike music, architecture can exist outside of time.  But, then, we are unable to experience it out of time.  Though, I suppose, memories of music and architecture may both exist out of time.

    All of this said, improvisational Jazz is truly unfrozen music.



    ------------------------------
    Mike Mense FAIA
    New York NY
    ------------------------------


  • 2.  RE: the egghead caucus?

    Posted 14 days ago
    A look at progressive music can establish correct parallels in contemporary music. The John Curtin School of Medicine by Lyons Architecture in Australia uses emergent rhythm (likely Bentley Systems for the interval) that relates to the emergent sound of composers like Olafur Arnalds and Nils Frahm. The parallel is not unlike Vivaldi's composition as an early industrial age composer in Baroque.

    ------------------------------
    Seth Trotter Assoc. AIA
    Sole Proprietor
    tdtCREATIVE
    Prescott AZ
    ------------------------------



  • 3.  RE: the egghead caucus?

    Posted 7 days ago
    I have attached an image of the aforementioned school of medical research.  Looks like a particularly successful example of duckness per Venturi's Complexity and Contradiction.  It would have been so much better if it was a school of music.  Thinking back on it, the duck vs decorated shed discussion, though enlightening, is not a terribly important dichotomy.  Decorated sheds, despite Venturi's almost defensive advocacy therefore, have always been the dominant architect's solution.  Taking an admittedly narrow view of duckness, the most important duck architect, by far, is Eero Saarinen(think TWA and Dulles).  One could make the case that Frank Gehry is a duckmaker, though it might be argued that his ducks are mentally ill.  Ronchamp and The Einstein Tower are two of the best ducks ever.  I think that Venturi was including the work of Kahn, Rudolph, Mies, the rest of Le Corbusier and many others of that ilk in his duck pond.  But we were talking about frozen music and Seth's example is of the purer form of duckness.  And, I guess my point here is that Seth's example, being of the rare form, does not confirm the frozen music claim.  Nonetheless, I would like to consider the musicality of Seth's example in my next post.


    ------------------------------
    Mike Mense FAIA
    New York NY
    ------------------------------



  • 4.  RE: the egghead caucus?

    Posted 7 days ago
    Emergent form is arguably a study on anthropomorphic algorithms that effectively mass as an arpeggiation. Emergence bloodlines dive deep into Vitruvian thought and reference classical language (skipping the Baroque Vivaldi?). The formal deconstructivist movements (south of the 10) might exhibit some of Jazz's finer compositions, but that's not a duck: it's a fish or turkey. They needed to reject something. Venturi is a key back into Classical rigor, something the design industry needs (as exemplified with Architects not valuing good urbanism in exchange for a hyper centric formal rejection of traditional value). A Neo-Mughal/neo-Azari project for a palace in the 21st century exhibits the passive nature of advancement from desert vernacular that rivals Breakers. I haven't necessarily established musical parallels beyond "A whole new world" for those archetypes. Thank you for exhibiting the work of Lyons' project; Australians value conservative progression with correct partis (another example is Federation Square).

    ------------------------------
    Seth Trotter Assoc. AIA
    Sole Proprietor
    tdtCREATIVE
    Prescott AZ
    ------------------------------



  • 5.  RE: the egghead caucus?

    Posted 7 days ago
    Refreshing discussion, if wide-ranging and verbose. (I missed something in passing: where is this palace, and are we referencing the hotel in Palm Beach, or?)  Pleased, though, to note some apparent displeasure with "hyper centric formal"  which may mean the often dystopian object buildings of these disturbing times that strain to be both bizarre and disengaged from their contexts. The photogenic zigzag is but a corner of a more conventional large complex; it would be interested to know how it functions and how well. (or not).

    ------------------------------
    Kenneth Moffett AIA
    Design Director
    Bullock Smith & Partners
    Knoxville TN
    ------------------------------



  • 6.  RE: the egghead caucus?

    Posted 7 days ago
    Response in burnt Orange.

    Kenneth M. Moffett AIA
    Aug 14, 2019 8:59 PM
    Kenneth M. Moffett AIA
    Refreshing discussion, if wide-ranging and verbose. (I missed something in passing: where is this palace Sheikh Zayed Grand Mosque Center, and are we referencing the hotel in Palm Beach Vanderbilt mansion in Rhode Island, point is volume of air in thermal mass of mansions keep structures cooler when correctly designed, or?)  Pleased, though, to note some apparent displeasure with "hyper centric formal" Federation Square would be an example of Hyper nodal (capping a railway to connect the south waterfront and Brighton) whereas some of these contemporary buildings don't actually engage at an urban scale (SM M L XL theory applies)  which may mean the often dystopian object buildings of these disturbing times that strain to be both bizarre and disengaged from their contexts (agree). The photogenic zigzag is but a corner of a more conventional large complex; it would be interested to know how it functions and how well. (or not) note posterior of building has relief studies that are university themed in contemporary language as apposed to classical language.

    ------------------------------
    Kenneth Moffett AIA
    Design Director
    Bullock Smith & Partners
    Knoxville TN
    ------------------------------
      Reply to Group Online   View Thread   Recommend   Forward   Flag as Inappropriate  



    ------------------------------
    Seth Trotter Assoc. AIA
    Sole Proprietor
    tdtCREATIVE
    Prescott AZ
    ------------------------------

    Original Message:
    Sent: 08-14-2019 20:59
    From: Kenneth Moffett
    Subject: the egghead caucus?

    Refreshing discussion, if wide-ranging and verbose. (I missed something in passing: where is this palace, and are we referencing the hotel in Palm Beach, or?)  Pleased, though, to note some apparent displeasure with "hyper centric formal"  which may mean the often dystopian object buildings of these disturbing times that strain to be both bizarre and disengaged from their contexts. The photogenic zigzag is but a corner of a more conventional large complex; it would be interested to know how it functions and how well. (or not).

    ------------------------------
    Kenneth Moffett AIA
    Design Director
    Bullock Smith & Partners
    Knoxville TN

    Original Message:
    Sent: 08-13-2019 22:27
    From: Seth Trotter
    Subject: the egghead caucus?

    Emergent form is arguably a study on anthropomorphic algorithms that effectively mass as an arpeggiation. Emergence bloodlines dive deep into Vitruvian thought and reference classical language (skipping the Baroque Vivaldi?). The formal deconstructivist movements (south of the 10) might exhibit some of Jazz's finer compositions, but that's not a duck: it's a fish or turkey. They needed to reject something. Venturi is a key back into Classical rigor, something the design industry needs (as exemplified with Architects not valuing good urbanism in exchange for a hyper centric formal rejection of traditional value). A Neo-Mughal/neo-Azari project for a palace in the 21st century exhibits the passive nature of advancement from desert vernacular that rivals Breakers. I haven't necessarily established musical parallels beyond "A whole new world" for those archetypes. Thank you for exhibiting the work of Lyons' project; Australians value conservative progression with correct partis (another example is Federation Square).

    ------------------------------
    Seth Trotter Assoc. AIA
    Sole Proprietor
    tdtCREATIVE
    Prescott AZ

    Original Message:
    Sent: 08-13-2019 21:58
    From: Mike Mense
    Subject: the egghead caucus?

    I have attached an image of the aforementioned school of medical research.  Looks like a particularly successful example of duckness per Venturi's Complexity and Contradiction.  It would have been so much better if it was a school of music.  Thinking back on it, the duck vs decorated shed discussion, though enlightening, is not a terribly important dichotomy.  Decorated sheds, despite Venturi's almost defensive advocacy therefore, have always been the dominant architect's solution.  Taking an admittedly narrow view of duckness, the most important duck architect, by far, is Eero Saarinen(think TWA and Dulles).  One could make the case that Frank Gehry is a duckmaker, though it might be argued that his ducks are mentally ill.  Ronchamp and The Einstein Tower are two of the best ducks ever.  I think that Venturi was including the work of Kahn, Rudolph, Mies, the rest of Le Corbusier and many others of that ilk in his duck pond.  But we were talking about frozen music and Seth's example is of the purer form of duckness.  And, I guess my point here is that Seth's example, being of the rare form, does not confirm the frozen music claim.  Nonetheless, I would like to consider the musicality of Seth's example in my next post.


    ------------------------------
    Mike Mense FAIA
    New York NY

    Original Message:
    Sent: 08-07-2019 17:44
    From: Seth Trotter
    Subject: the egghead caucus?

    A look at progressive music can establish correct parallels in contemporary music. The John Curtin School of Medicine by Lyons Architecture in Australia uses emergent rhythm (likely Bentley Systems for the interval) that relates to the emergent sound of composers like Olafur Arnalds and Nils Frahm. The parallel is not unlike Vivaldi's composition as an early industrial age composer in Baroque.

    ------------------------------
    Seth Trotter Assoc. AIA
    Sole Proprietor
    tdtCREATIVE
    Prescott AZ

    Original Message:
    Sent: 08-06-2019 21:22
    From: Mike Mense
    Subject: the egghead caucus?

    After three days at the Newport Jazz Festival.  If architecture is an experience, it is not frozen.  Each time it is affected by time of day, season, weather, and the prevailing feelings of the experiencer.  In that sense it is equivalent to composed music.  On the face of it, architecture's sequences are not as predictable as those of music.  But I wonder if the neuroscientists' understandings of how we know or remember music and architecture are in fact different.  Also, it appears that, unlike music, architecture can exist outside of time.  But, then, we are unable to experience it out of time.  Though, I suppose, memories of music and architecture may both exist out of time.

    All of this said, improvisational Jazz is truly unfrozen music.



    ------------------------------
    Mike Mense FAIA
    New York NY
    ------------------------------


  • 7.  RE: the egghead caucus?

    Posted 6 days ago
    The eggs (heads?) are getting overcooked, time to take them off this griddle.

    ------------------------------
    Eugene Ely AIA Emeritus, LEED AP
    San Jose, CA
    ------------------------------



  • 8.  RE: the egghead caucus?

    Posted 6 days ago
    Thanks for responses!  I recall an epic set of discussion threads in 2011 on design excellence and related issues, and am pleased that some unfettered thoughts are again appearing on this forum. Architecture and music have some striking similarities of structure and form (one recalls Goethe's quote) and can indeed inform each other. (I note in passing some references elsewhere to  "hip-hop architecture," whatever that may be, with a measure of concern--)

    ------------------------------
    Kenneth Moffett AIA
    Design Director
    Bullock Smith & Partners
    Knoxville TN
    ------------------------------



  • 9.  RE: the egghead caucus?

    Posted 6 days ago
    Seth, I aspire to eggheadedness, but I remain determined to understand what I and others say, at least most of the time.  I need some clarification in order to make any sense of your message.  What is emergent form?  What is an anthropomorphic algorithm?, mass as arpeggiation?  south of the 10?  My use of "duck" is a term of art, widely recognized if not understood by architects.  I don't think any of us understand "fish or turkey" as an architectural metaphor.  Please explain.  Please explain Neo-Mughal/neo-Azari.  I agree that without this and maybe more information you have so far failed to establish any musical parallels.  I, and others I hope, look forward to your understandable clarifications.  Or, maybe you are just pulling my leg?

    ------------------------------
    Mike Mense FAIA
    New York NY
    ------------------------------



  • 10.  RE: the egghead caucus?

    Posted 6 days ago
    Response in Very Dark Gray and Yellow Green background


    Mike A. Mense FAIA
    Aug 15, 2019 7:38 PM
    Mike A. Mense FAIA
    Seth, I aspire to eggheadedness, but I remain determined to understand what I and others say, at least most of the time.  I need some clarification in order to make any sense of your message Okay.  What is emergent form? Emergent form is a style of architecture based on Organic study, namely cellular and human proportional elements like compact bone (osteon)  What is an anthropomorphic algorithm? An algorithm designed to mimic natural order, mass as arpeggiation?A sequence of notes from a chord, the musical composition often has arpeggiation shifts that follow number sequences.  south of the 10?A region of gentrification in Los Angeles that encompasses the Hayden Tract and Architects like Frank Gehry and Eric Owen Moss. Region is not intended to reference anything East of Los Angeles County in California. My use of "duck" is a term of art, widely recognized if not understood by architects.I am an Associate AIA trying to drop the word Associate,   I don't think any of us understand "fish or turkey" as an architectural metaphor.  Please explain. Fish is Gehry's duck and turkey is a coop himmelbau   (l)'s referenc(l)e to their progressive ducks. I appreciate the value of pop and classical thought that Venturi attributes to his work.  Please explain Neo-Mughal/neo-Azari. Sheikh Zayad Grand Mosque is a project that exemplifies style brought in from neighboring regions, much of the UAE has a Babylonian influence but Azari is from Parthian / Persian roots and Mughal is Indian/Indus Valley in roots.  I agree that without this and maybe more information you have so far failed to establish any musical parallels.  I, and others I hope, look forward to your understandable clarifications.  Or, maybe you are just pulling my leg? There are important parallels of style in musical form. Vivaldi's connection to Baroque is one of the world's most important comparisons. The music defined a new age of classical language from antiquity being mastered in an industrial age.

    ------------------------------
    Mike Mense FAIA
    New York NY
    ------------------


    ------------------------------
    Seth Trotter Assoc. AIA
    Sole Proprietor
    tdtCREATIVE
    Prescott AZ
    ------------------------------



  • 11.  RE: the egghead caucus?

    Posted 6 days ago
    Seth
    I believe your first sentence could be restated as "Organic(biophilic) architectural design is an attempt to create architectural form that mimics a musical arpeggio using algorithms that attempt to model "natural" behavior".  There are so many things to say.  Biophilia fans, I think, would be offended by your suggestion that theirs is a style and that they are focused on form as a message.  The use of algorithms is not nearly so widespread as you seem to assume.  Finally, I don't know what you are trying to tell me in terms of my original post.  To put it bluntly, what is your point?
    I make these posts in an attempt to inspire thoughtful architects to argue, in the process enriching their practices, and mine.  That is my point.

    I can't help myself, has Gehry written about fish?  Has Coop Himmelbau written about turkeys?  If so, please show me where.  If not, the two creatures are in no way comparable to Venturi's ducks as architectural metaphors.

    Seth, this is my last reply directly to you.  Not out of disrespect, but out of befuddlement.
    My best to you and yours.

    ------------------------------
    Mike Mense FAIA
    New York NY
    ------------------------------