Committee on Design

^{I would get an acoustical consultant involved right away. From preliminary discussions of s large single family housing development adjoining an Interstate highway it appeared that  a wall or an earth berm would have to be very high to have any significant effect on the noise level. The} project did not go ahead so we did not get into detailed solutions. 

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John Hayes FAIA
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Original Message:
Sent: 07-19-2021 09:50 AM
From: Kathleen Sullivan
Subject: Outdoor Acoustical Control for Outdoor Small Restuarant

Hello-

Scene- Small restaurant in old mixed use DT has its rear yard butt up to a pocket of single family homes. New owner of restaurant wishes to add outdoor seating at the rear. Neighbors expressed concern about noise- owner will work out hours of operation and if or when music might be played outside- will work with neighbors and village government.

However, we have been asked to present noise control options. We showed a wall that was 6-6 high. The planning board would like to see some back up for the material choice.

Before going to an acoustical engineer, has anyone had experience in this type of question. Recommendations for  a product? A place for guidance that is DIY?

Thank you

------------------------------
Kathleen Sullivan AIA
Trio Architecture pllc
Hastings on Hudson NY
------------------------------

Sounds travel outward in all directions. Can't imagine any wall of reasonable height (6' +-) will do much of anything for you.  I'm guessing this is way more than owner wants to get involved in, but a canopy of some kind will do more than any wall can do. Then you're going to get into fire ratings et al. 

CA's infamous highway sound walls wound up bouncing sound into neighborhoods a mile away in the opposite direction. Unintended consequences.  If you wind up with a wall line with foam used in recording studios or Anechoic chambers. 

Sounds travel outward in all directions. Can't imagine any wall of reasonable height (6' +-) will do much of anything for you.  I'm guessing this is way more than owner wants to get involved in, but a canopy of some kind will do more than any wall can do. Then you're going to get into fire ratings et al. 

CA's infamous highway sound walls wound up bouncing sound into neighborhoods a mile away in the opposite direction. Unintended consequences.  If you wind up with a wall line with foam used in recording studios or Anechoic chambers. 

On traditional city blocks that are ringed by four or five story townhouses, the back yards of the houses are usually separated by six foot high wood or brick walls. 

if your neighbor has a party in their backyard, you will hear people talking and moving around. It doesn't matter whether the wall is wool or brick, the sound just comes over the top. And if your neighbor has a house near an inner corner of the block, the sound will be reflected toward you from the backs of other houses. You put up with it as just one of the trade offs for living in the city. If a neighbor has a band in once or twice s year for s birthday party, you accept that too as long as they shut down at a reasonable time.

But if s band bought s house and started playing in their own backyard every night, you and your neighbors would complain to he city to get it stopped.  Short of moving them inside or enclosing their whole backyard in soundproof structure (if code permits) I don't see how outdoor music and neighbors in a residential visit could coexist

Now, none of us has seen your site  That's why I suggested getting an opinion from an acoustical consultant right away. Paying for a few hours of an expert's time now may be the most economical way to get ahead.  

------------------------------
John Hayes FAIA

Original Message:
Sent: 07-22-2021 05:33 PM
From: William Figdor
Subject: Outdoor Acoustical Control for Outdoor Small Restuarant

Hi Kathleen,
I know from having worked at IBM in Poughkeepsie, that mass best stops sound.  The heavier the material the better the sound deadening.  When we built an isolation room to test radio frequency, it had to completely soundproof from the outside.  The walls, floor and ceiling were lined with lead sheets, then anechoic foam on top of that.  The anechoic foam consisted of about 3' deep spikes.  It was in this anechoic chamber that they could test their equipment.  You could not hear a thing outside.
In a restaurant a heavy wall, along with shrubs would act in a similar fashion.  Of course agreeing to limiting db of music also wouldn't hurt.  In my opinion they ruin it for me when we have to shout to hear each other, so we just avoid those places even if the food is great.
Best of luck with your project!

------------------------------
William Figdor, AIA
Art & Architecture, LLC
Maplewood, NJ
Figdor@mac.com

Original Message:
Sent: 07-19-2021 09:50 AM
From: Kathleen Sullivan
Subject: Outdoor Acoustical Control for Outdoor Small Restuarant

Hello-

Scene- Small restaurant in old mixed use DT has its rear yard butt up to a pocket of single family homes. New owner of restaurant wishes to add outdoor seating at the rear. Neighbors expressed concern about noise- owner will work out hours of operation and if or when music might be played outside- will work with neighbors and village government.

However, we have been asked to present noise control options. We showed a wall that was 6-6 high. The planning board would like to see some back up for the material choice.

Before going to an acoustical engineer, has anyone had experience in this type of question. Recommendations for  a product? A place for guidance that is DIY?

Thank you

------------------------------
Kathleen Sullivan AIA
Trio Architecture pllc
Hastings on Hudson NY
------------------------------

On traditional city blocks that are ringed by four or five story townhouses, the back yards of the houses are usually separated by six foot high wood or brick walls. 

if your neighbor has a party in their backyard, you will hear people talking and moving around. It doesn't matter whether the wall is wool or brick, the sound just comes over the top. And if your neighbor has a house near an inner corner of the block, the sound will be reflected toward you from the backs of other houses. You put up with it as just one of the trade offs for living in the city. If a neighbor has a band in once or twice s year for s birthday party, you accept that too as long as they shut down at a reasonable time.

But if s band bought s house and started playing in their own backyard every night, you and your neighbors would complain to he city to get it stopped.  Short of moving them inside or enclosing their whole backyard in soundproof structure (if code permits) I don't see how outdoor music and neighbors in a residential visit could coexist

Now, none of us has seen your site  That's why I suggested getting an opinion from an acoustical consultant right away. Paying for a few hours of an expert's time now may be the most economical way to get ahead.  

------------------------------
John Hayes FAIA

Original Message:
Sent: 07-22-2021 05:33 PM
From: William Figdor
Subject: Outdoor Acoustical Control for Outdoor Small Restuarant

Hi Kathleen,
I know from having worked at IBM in Poughkeepsie, that mass best stops sound.  The heavier the material the better the sound deadening.  When we built an isolation room to test radio frequency, it had to completely soundproof from the outside.  The walls, floor and ceiling were lined with lead sheets, then anechoic foam on top of that.  The anechoic foam consisted of about 3' deep spikes.  It was in this anechoic chamber that they could test their equipment.  You could not hear a thing outside.
In a restaurant a heavy wall, along with shrubs would act in a similar fashion.  Of course agreeing to limiting db of music also wouldn't hurt.  In my opinion they ruin it for me when we have to shout to hear each other, so we just avoid those places even if the food is great.
Best of luck with your project!

------------------------------
William Figdor, AIA
Art & Architecture, LLC
Maplewood, NJ
Figdor@mac.com

Original Message:
Sent: 07-19-2021 09:50 AM
From: Kathleen Sullivan
Subject: Outdoor Acoustical Control for Outdoor Small Restuarant

Hello-

Scene- Small restaurant in old mixed use DT has its rear yard butt up to a pocket of single family homes. New owner of restaurant wishes to add outdoor seating at the rear. Neighbors expressed concern about noise- owner will work out hours of operation and if or when music might be played outside- will work with neighbors and village government.

However, we have been asked to present noise control options. We showed a wall that was 6-6 high. The planning board would like to see some back up for the material choice.

Before going to an acoustical engineer, has anyone had experience in this type of question. Recommendations for  a product? A place for guidance that is DIY?

Thank you

------------------------------
Kathleen Sullivan AIA
Trio Architecture pllc
Hastings on Hudson NY
------------------------------

On traditional city blocks that are ringed by four or five story townhouses, the back yards of the houses are usually separated by six foot high wood or brick walls. 

if your neighbor has a party in their backyard, you will hear people talking and moving around. It doesn't matter whether the wall is wool or brick, the sound just comes over the top. And if your neighbor has a house near an inner corner of the block, the sound will be reflected toward you from the backs of other houses. You put up with it as just one of the trade offs for living in the city. If a neighbor has a band in once or twice s year for s birthday party, you accept that too as long as they shut down at a reasonable time.

But if s band bought s house and started playing in their own backyard every night, you and your neighbors would complain to he city to get it stopped.  Short of moving them inside or enclosing their whole backyard in soundproof structure (if code permits) I don't see how outdoor music and neighbors in a residential visit could coexist

Now, none of us has seen your site  That's why I suggested getting an opinion from an acoustical consultant right away. Paying for a few hours of an expert's time now may be the most economical way to get ahead.  

------------------------------
John Hayes FAIA

Original Message:
Sent: 07-22-2021 05:33 PM
From: William Figdor
Subject: Outdoor Acoustical Control for Outdoor Small Restuarant

Hi Kathleen,
I know from having worked at IBM in Poughkeepsie, that mass best stops sound.  The heavier the material the better the sound deadening.  When we built an isolation room to test radio frequency, it had to completely soundproof from the outside.  The walls, floor and ceiling were lined with lead sheets, then anechoic foam on top of that.  The anechoic foam consisted of about 3' deep spikes.  It was in this anechoic chamber that they could test their equipment.  You could not hear a thing outside.
In a restaurant a heavy wall, along with shrubs would act in a similar fashion.  Of course agreeing to limiting db of music also wouldn't hurt.  In my opinion they ruin it for me when we have to shout to hear each other, so we just avoid those places even if the food is great.
Best of luck with your project!

------------------------------
William Figdor, AIA
Art & Architecture, LLC
Maplewood, NJ
Figdor@mac.com

Original Message:
Sent: 07-19-2021 09:50 AM
From: Kathleen Sullivan
Subject: Outdoor Acoustical Control for Outdoor Small Restuarant

Hello-

Scene- Small restaurant in old mixed use DT has its rear yard butt up to a pocket of single family homes. New owner of restaurant wishes to add outdoor seating at the rear. Neighbors expressed concern about noise- owner will work out hours of operation and if or when music might be played outside- will work with neighbors and village government.

However, we have been asked to present noise control options. We showed a wall that was 6-6 high. The planning board would like to see some back up for the material choice.

Before going to an acoustical engineer, has anyone had experience in this type of question. Recommendations for  a product? A place for guidance that is DIY?

Thank you

------------------------------
Kathleen Sullivan AIA
Trio Architecture pllc
Hastings on Hudson NY
------------------------------