Practice Management Member Conversations

 View Only

Community HTML

Clouds

Quick Links

Who we are

The Practice Management Knowledge Community (PMKC) identifies and develops information on the business of architecture for use by the profession to maintain and improve the quality of the professional and business environment.  The PMKC initiates programs, provides content and serves as a resource to other knowledge communities, and acts as experts on AIA Institute programs and policies that pertain to a wide variety of business practices and trends.

    

Expand all | Collapse all

A'21 Chats

  • 1.  A'21 Chats

    Posted 06-23-2021 05:39 PM
    At the end of day 1 at A'21 I joined a breakout room focused on the preceding keynote address about Transforming the Business of Design. Folks seemed to catch the most fire from Sheela Sogaard's comments about not leaving money at the bargaining tbale so you can pay better wages = attract better talent that would otherwise move to other parts of the industry. Some breakouters seemed to pine for the days before AIA's antitrust consent decree when there was a more fixed fee structure for architects; others observed that successful architects remain successful and we just need to figure out how to elevate the average one. A suggestion was made that the AIA should not just focus on how to comply with the Antitrust box we are in, but apply legal and lobbying leverage to break out of the box - with questions about how the realtors have gotten by all this time (tho lately they are seeing market competition by Redfin and other discounters). Any thoughts on the relative value (and specific how-to) of your AIA being allowed to define what your fee minimums should be vs helping you learn how to negotiate and position yourself more powerfully?

    ------------------------------
    Scott Knudson AIA
    AIA PMKC Leadership Group
    ------------------------------


  • 2.  RE: A'21 Chats

    Posted 06-25-2021 07:46 AM

    I think it's a terrible idea to allow our industry trade group, the AIA, to define our fee structure.  We're not a cartel, we're independent businesses serving our communities. 

    Price-fixing is anti-competitive, distorts market-choice and ultimately drives down the quality and selection of services offered to the customer. 

     

    Bob Krieger

    Robert Krieger, AIA, NCARB

    Vice President

     

                 [View this post online to see image]

       

    Dahn  &  Krieger

    Architects Planners PC

    216 Route 17 North Suite 203

    Rochelle Park  New Jersey 07662

     

    tel        201 489 8575 x309

    direct   551 287 6113

    fax       201 489 5814

    email   rkrieger@dahn-krieger.com

    visit at www.dahn-krieger.com

     

      

     

    As of 5/01/2020 our new office address is as noted above. Phone, fax and email remain the same.

     

    In response to governmental guidance due to COVID-19, we've issued remote work practices across the company.  We are fully operational, and response times should not be impacted. Stay well.

     

    A picture containing food, drawing, room  Description automatically generated   A picture containing drawing  Description automatically generated   A close up of a sign  Description automatically generated  A close up of a logo  Description automatically generated

     

    This message, together with its attachments, if any, may contain information from the architecture firm of Dahn & Krieger Architects Planners PC which is legally privileged and/or confidential, and is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed.  If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this message, its contents, or any attachments, is strictly prohibited.  If you have received this message in error, please notify the original sender immediately by return e-mail or by telephone and delete the message, along with any attachments thereto, from your computer.   Although we have made every effort to safeguard this e-mail and any attachments against viruses, there is no guarantee that this message is virus free. It is the recipient's responsibility to protect against viruses and other defects that may result from the opening of this e-mail or any attachments hereto.

    P Before printing this email or any attachments, think about your responsibility and commitment to the environment.

     






  • 3.  RE: A'21 Chats

    Posted 06-28-2021 06:34 PM
    Huh?  We were here a while ago:


    Chris Semmelink RA

    Sent from my iPad





  • 4.  RE: A'21 Chats

    Posted 06-29-2021 07:55 AM
    Price fixing for Architects is a horrible idea.  AIA was sued in the 60's for trying.  Charge what you can.  As you improve, charge more.

     
    JamesM.Copeland RA 
    Principal
    HUDSON DESIGN  
    Architecture & Construction Management
    Tel: (845) 424-4810 | Mobile: (914) 393-5062
    www.hudsondesign.pro

    Follow HD

         





  • 5.  RE: A'21 Chats

    Posted 06-30-2021 11:30 PM
    I remember Arthur Gensler saying (paraphrased): If you think you're underpaid, you're being paid what you're worth.






  • 6.  RE: A'21 Chats

    Posted 07-01-2021 04:22 PM
    I don't think the discussion should be about price fixing or not and obviously not anything that would be in conflict with the anti-trust law. Smaller offices go to great lengths to try to estimate for work and there is a lot of misinformation out there. Some offices do not have the luxury to overestimate in order to test the market, but also want to be paid fairly for the work to be performed, and want to estimate for future staff/growth. What architects desire are some suggested percentages or fees for certain scopes of work. This not only helps architects but this would help potential clients with their budgets. Coming from the AIA would carry more weight than someone searching the untrustworthy sites or google. Or worse, from bad information getting so-and-so's contractor or someone who got a deal years ago. There is a lot of information out there and a guide should be generated at the minimum annually or whenever the contacts are updated by the Institute but preferably something to help adjust to the changing market. The Royal Architectural Institute of Canada has a guide to assist Architects and Project Clients in determining appropriate fees for Architects & projects and there should be something to assist the American Institute of Architect members.  Especially those who use the AIA contracts. Their guide even includes a fee calculation worksheet. The discussion that there needs to be some assistance for the industry is a good one and shouldn't be dismissed. 




    Rand Pinson, AIA







  • 7.  RE: A'21 Chats

    Posted 07-01-2021 05:38 PM
    Fred A. Stitt, Editor/Publisher of GUIDELINES and
    Founder/Director of the San Francisco Institute of Architecture, provides some excellent research on A/E Fees:

    https://guidelinesonline.com/aedesignservices.htm#aedesignservices

    ------------------------------
    James Copeland AIA
    Principal
    Hudson Design
    Garrison NY
    ------------------------------



  • 8.  RE: A'21 Chats

    Posted 07-02-2021 03:31 PM
    Figure out your cost of labor, and your profit target. Then apply that formula to your proposals, and fine tune as you gain experience with markets, project types & clients.

    Sent from my iPhone




  • 9.  RE: A'21 Chats

    Posted 07-02-2021 05:59 PM
    Friends:

    We would not likely ask a lawyer or physician for guidance on scale, proportion or the aesthetic of the design of a building.  Maybe a lawyer is the one to ask about the legal implications of the AIA/Justice Dept. Consent Decree.  And Canada law is Canada law.  US law is US law.  Let's stay in our lane.

    JN


    John Nyfeler, FAIA
    Consulting Architect

    P. O. Box 4479
    Austin, Texas   78765-4479
    512.923.8623
    John@JohnNyfeler.com
    www.JohnNyfeler.com






  • 10.  RE: A'21 Chats

    Posted 06-28-2021 04:30 PM
    Regardless of available average architectural billing fees per building type (yep...you can Google them) or the infamous AIA antitrust suit,  I would suggest that firm principal's "test the waters" from time to time...especially when work is plentiful.

    Practice submitting ever higher fees at the upper end of current market rates until you start to get push-back...that's when you know where your fees should be.  You want to be the "Well Compensated" guy !!!

    At least I do.



    Peter
     
    Macrae ARCHitecture, LLC
     
    Peter S. Macrae, AIA
    Principal
    "MARCHing with a different perspective"
     
    74 Orchard Drive
    Worthington, OH 43085
     
    614-205-6805 phone
    614-848-8113 fax
     





  • 11.  RE: A'21 Chats

    Posted 07-07-2021 03:31 PM
    Edited by Emma Tucker 07-07-2021 03:31 PM
    Hi all - due to the topic at hand, I asked our General Counsel to review this thread and provide some feedback. Please see his response below:

    ---------------

    Greetings all:

    This thread was flagged by our Knowledge Community team due to potential antitrust implications.  I have reviewed the thread, and I understand the desire to discuss these issues at a high level – the fact that discussion regarding actual fee amounts was avoided is appreciated; however, antitrust laws cover much more than that.

    Three things to keep in mind:

    • Antitrust laws are complex and unforgiving. They involve no fewer than four federal bodies of law – the Sherman Act, Clayton Act, Robinson-Patman Act, and the Federal Trade Commission Act (and there are state laws that also may be applicable).
    • Professional membership organizations like the AIA are particularly fertile ground for antitrust issues. Organizations like AIA are, by definition, a structured group of competitors acting in concert. Moreover, AIA has the fortune of being an organization that enjoys of market share of architects and design professionals, making antitrust becomes an even more sensitive area.
    • The AIA has a history with the Department of Justice on these issues.


    The question, then, is how do we have these kinds of good faith discussions without running afoul of the antitrust laws?  Because of the complexities, these kinds of discussion should take place as part of a planned and curated session which can be reviewed beforehand and monitored during. This is less organic, of course, but it is the best way to go about it.

    If you have any questions or wish to speak to me directly, please feel free to contact me at tona@aia.org. I would be happy to talk with you.

    Terrence "Terry" Ona
    Sr. Vice President & General Counsel
    Office of General Counsel

     It is the practice of The American Institute of Architects ("the Institute" or "the AIA") and its members to comply strictly with all laws, including federal and state antitrust laws, that apply to AIA operations and activities. Compliance with the letter and spirit of the antitrust laws is an important goal of the AIA, and is essential to maintaining the Institute's reputation for the highest standards of ethical conduct.



    ------------------------------
    Emma Tucker, Manager, Knowledge Communities
    The American Institute of Architects, Washington, DC
    ------------------------------



  • 12.  RE: A'21 Chats

    Posted 07-13-2021 10:45 AM
    Didn't think I had a dog in this fight, but I don't believe the government can erase the first amendment.  Unless we talk dollars or very specific strategies, how can we be muzzled?

    ------------------------------
    R. Coco AIA
    Senior Architectural Project Manager
    Midland TX
    ------------------------------



  • 13.  RE: A'21 Chats

    Posted 07-13-2021 11:36 AM
    Has not the AIA performed a survey of what  fees members have and do charge for various types of projects and circumstances?  This would be helpful to less experienced firms and surely is not price fixing.   We have consulted such a survey called Guidelines prepared by Fred A. Stitt, Founder of the San Francisco Institute of Architects.

     
    James M. Copeland AIA , Principal 
    HUDSON DESIGN  
    Architecture & Construction Management
    Tel: (845) 424-4810 | Mobile: (914) 393-5062
    www.hudsondesign.pro

    Follow HD

         






  • 14.  RE: A'21 Chats

    Posted 07-14-2021 06:51 PM

    When the professional organization (a trade group) assembles and distributes this information it is regarded as collusion & price fixing and is enjoined by the anti-trust laws. Think of it as sharing price information among all the brick suppliers through the Masonry Institute.

     

    If a private publisher accumulates and sells this information, it is free speech.

     

    Jim Copeland is correct (see his chat entry). This is what Means does when they publish the cost of material and labor for different parts of the country.



    ------------------------------
    G. Drake Jacobs AIA
    Group One Partners, Inc.
    Melrose MA
    ------------------------------



  • 15.  RE: A'21 Chats

    Posted 07-15-2021 06:58 PM
    Good Clarification from G. Drake Jacobs.

    And, years / decades ago, when the AIA published fees that members were required to charge, it was even more clearly price fixing.

    Out here in Washington, the State publishes guidelines for fees for state-funded public work.  They are somewhat negotiable (especially if work will be done by consultants), but in effect are payment-fixing.  And that's considered OK.

    Whatever you decide to charge, be sure that part of your budget is profit.  You need that for buying new computers or putting in your pocket.

    --
    best regards,
    Joel Niemi
    - Architect
    425.422.4276
    jniemiarchitect@gmail.com
    http://www.linkedin.com/in/jniemiarchitect