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The mission of the Historic Resources Committee (HRC) is to identify, understand, and preserve architectural heritage, both nationally and internationally. HRC is engaged in promoting the role of the historic architect within the profession through the development of information and knowledge among members, allied professional organizations, and the public.

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1902 Residential trim

  • 1.  1902 Residential trim

    Posted 04-24-2020 05:32 PM

    Has anyone seen radiused trim constructed in this manner.  Was this fabricated in a shop or on site?  This trim was used as the leading edge of the radiused built-in turret gutters.  The straight sections are solid 2" thick poplar.

     

    Would love to know a little bit more about it.

     

     

    Dave Ely, AIA, LEED GA

    Senior Associate

    direct 256.704.1831      mobile 256.426.5895

    104   Jefferson   Street     ●     Huntsville,   Alabama   35801      www.kpsgroup.com

     

     




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    2024 HRC Taliesin West


  • 2.  RE: 1902 Residential trim

    Posted 04-27-2020 05:29 PM

    Wow, never.  It will be interesting to see if anyone else has seen this....

     

    Diana Melichar, AIA | President

     

    SMALL LOGO REDTEXT ONLY - SUPER SMALL EMAIL SIGNATURE OUTLINES

     

    207 E. Westminster, Suite 104

    Lake Forest, Illinois 60045

    847.295.2440

    MelicharArchitects.com

    Diana@MelicharArchitects.com

     

     




    2024 HRC Taliesin West


  • 3.  RE: 1902 Residential trim

    Posted 04-27-2020 05:34 PM

    Fascinating construction method.  Would love to know more also! 

     

     
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    BERKE

    PARTNERS

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    2024 HRC Taliesin West


  • 4.  RE: 1902 Residential trim

    Posted 04-28-2020 06:29 PM
    I was interested in your question and your photographs so sent your question to Mr. Randal Weber, the craftsman we've been using most recently knowing his experience with this sort of thing is far more extensive than my experience.  Here's what he had to say: 

    Not sure if you just wanted me to see out of interest or thrown my 2 cents on it

    There's a number of ways of doing that:

    One person mentioned composites. That's one. I personally am not particularly savvy with those, only aware they can do that.

    A straight board can bend to some degree . . . though from the pic I suspect this radius is far too tight for that to be practical

    A steamed board (of the right species) can do amazing things in bending. White oak does great. Walnut can, but takes a ton of time to get steamed. Mahogany will break almost every time. Poplar? Man I don't know. I can't imagine any sane person using poplar for exterior work. It generally looks fine right up until someone breathes on it. I wouldn't even put it in a bathroom. It degrades way too easily.

    Years ago I had a house of something like that vintage that I rebuilt a porch on. So all the deck boards went out like a fan (tapered, tongue and grooved) and the skirting was radiused like that. I did it on site. Made up a bunch of thin strips and did a bent lamination in place with West epoxy and a ton of clamps. That was all VGDF for material. It would be even better in a shop environment where jigs and patterns could be made to hold everything precisely. That wasn't an option I had 20 years ago. More reliable outcome. Possibly harder to transport.

    IIRC, the wood that came out, circa 1900's, was kerf cut and bent, simply nailed to the joist ends. As much as I want to sneer at the method, it probably came close to 100 years for durability.

    I hope you find his reply of some benefit.



    ------------------------------
    Jerry Berggren AIA
    Berggren Architects
    Lincoln NE
    ------------------------------

    2024 HRC Taliesin West


  • 5.  RE: 1902 Residential trim

    Posted 04-28-2020 06:45 PM
      |   view attached
    Dave,

    I have seen curved wood mouldings constructed in this manner before.  However, the orientation of the wood strips in your sample appear to be running 90 degrees to what I would expect to see for a curve in plan.

    Typically, if the moulding is curved in plan, the thin wood strips are vertical, bent and glued around a form with the same radius as the inside radius of the moulding.  This creates a "blank" with the desired height and projection of the finished moulding.  The blank is then run through a shaper, or moulder, with a bit of the same profile as the matching straight moulding.  A jig, stops or guides are placed on the table of the shaper or moulder to keep the face of the blank tangential to the face of the bit as the moulding is cut.  This method is used a lot for curved stair railings.  If the moulding were curved in elevation (arched) the strips are stacked vertically over a form, to build up the blank.  The actual moulding process is similar.  This is called the "bent lamination" method.  

    Another method uses laminated blocks, which are cut to the curve in plan or elevation, and then stacked and glued together to build up the blank, and them moulded similar to the process above.  This results in a lot of waste in creating the blank,as the staves have to be cut from a wider board, to get the desired curvature.

    See attached page from Architectural Woodwork Standards - 2nd Edition, illustrating the two methods.

    Since you say the moulding was part of the gutter assembly, I'm assuming the top of the moulding is to the left in the photo.  If the top is actually to the right, the wood strip orientation would make more sense, if the curved block or stave method were used.

    As the house was constructed in 1902, the moulding was most likely produced by a woodworking mill.  Even if there was not a local mill, in the early 20th Century, this type of work could be ordered from major mills located some distance away, and shipped to the site by rail.  



    ------------------------------
    J. Hairston AIA
    Senior Architect
    Gardner Architects
    Oklahoma City OK
    ------------------------------

    Attachment(s)

    pdf
    AWI - Radius Mouldings.pdf   290 KB 1 version
    2024 HRC Taliesin West


  • 6.  RE: 1902 Residential trim

    Posted 04-30-2020 09:51 AM

    Thanks everyone for your thoughts!  This is still a very curious detail as I would have expected kerfed and/or steamed wood.  The right hand side of the original photo I sent is the top and forms the lip of the built-in gutter.  I've attached another photo here that puts the trim in context.  I have 3 turrets and the radii are tight.  Reviewing the AWI material Dennis sent it appears that it was constructed like method "A", and then the front was shaped.  I suspect it was shop built.  It's still curious that the back side of each piece was beveled before assembly as they are not exactly flush with one another.  I can't imagine each individual piece being steamed, especially since it's against the grain and there are no kerfs to help.

     

    Poplar wood in the south was extensively used for trim and clapboard.  This piece is fairly protected as long as the gutter doesn't leak...  Old growth poplar will last if maintained.  We are using mahogany for our replacement pieces.  Waiting on a sample of this curved trim!

     

     

     

    Dave Ely, AIA, LEED GA

    Senior Associate

    direct 256.704.1831      mobile 256.426.5895

    104   Jefferson   Street     ●     Huntsville,   Alabama   35801      www.kpsgroup.com

     

     




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    Attachment(s)

    pdf
    Lowe House 1-28-20 8.pdf   80 KB 1 version
    2024 HRC Taliesin West


  • 7.  RE: 1902 Residential trim

    Posted 05-01-2020 05:59 PM
    BTW, don't know if this applies, but ca. 1902 and before, towers, turrets, and similar radius features were clapboarded with a carpentry technique that is neither kerfing nor laminating. If useful, let me know and I'll dig up and forward info on it. 



    2024 HRC Taliesin West


  • 8.  RE: 1902 Residential trim

    Posted 05-05-2020 06:12 AM
    There is a third way? This would be interesting. Is the technique readily applicable These days?


    2024 HRC Taliesin West


  • 9.  RE: 1902 Residential trim

    Posted 05-09-2020 06:21 PM
    Hello Warren: Attached (I hope) is the promised historic info on installing radius clapboards. As I mentioned, my original memory was off; this is more about getting them level than actually bending the wood, but it may be of interest nonetheless. (While I've done my fair share of clapboarding, I've only seen evidence of this method, but I have faced the same carpentry issue working on boats.)
    There are many versions of this and I have only attached two: one covering the whole process ("Bay" pps 1&2) and another ("Tower") where I omitted the set-up question to save space. Both are ca. 1913. Enjoy! Gordon (301-933-1071)



    2024 HRC Taliesin West


  • 10.  RE: 1902 Residential trim

    Posted 05-06-2020 06:14 PM
    I would be interested in knowing what that method is.

    BTW my response above that included two photos I miss stated the orientation of the trim.  The larger/thicker portion is at the bottom.



    ------------------------------
    David Ely AIA
    Architect
    KPS Group, Inc.
    Huntsville AL
    ------------------------------

    2024 HRC Taliesin West


  • 11.  RE: 1902 Residential trim

    Posted 05-06-2020 07:56 PM
    Hi David: Thanks for your interest. Turns out, I was somewhat off target. Turns out, the carpentry method I remember is more about installing beveled siding so it lays horizontal on a radius feature over a previous course of siding (which changes the radius) than the actual mechanics of bending the wood. Anyway, I'm going to scan a copy of it (there are many variations) as soon as I get back in town, and will send one to you for your "nifty carpentry files". Sorry for the confusion and hope this helps. -- Gordon (in Silver Spring, MD; 301-933-1071) 



    2024 HRC Taliesin West


  • 12.  RE: 1902 Residential trim

    Posted 05-07-2020 05:59 PM
    Gordon,
    Great!  Sounds like good information to have on file.

    ------------------------------
    David Ely AIA
    Architect
    KPS Group, Inc.
    Huntsville AL
    ------------------------------

    2024 HRC Taliesin West


  • 13.  RE: 1902 Residential trim

    Posted 05-09-2020 06:00 PM
    Hi David: Attached (I hope) is the long-promised historic info on installing radius clapboards. As I mentioned, my original memory of this was off; it's more about getting them level that actually bending the wood, but may be of interest nonetheless. (While I've done my share of clapboarding, I've only seen evidence of this method on turrets, etc. but I have faced the same carpentry issue working on boats.)
    There are many versions of this and what are attached are just two: one whole process (Circular Bay pps 1&2 ) and another (Tower)where I omitted the writer's question to save space. Both are ca. 1913. Enjoy! -- Gordon (301-933-1071) 



    2024 HRC Taliesin West


  • 14.  RE: 1902 Residential trim

    Posted 05-12-2020 11:33 AM
    Gordan,
    Thanks for sending those pages!  Fascinating solution.  I just looked up and ordered a copy of this book from Amazon!

    David

    ------------------------------
    David Ely AIA
    Architect
    KPS Group, Inc.
    Huntsville AL
    ------------------------------

    2024 HRC Taliesin West


  • 15.  RE: 1902 Residential trim

    Posted 05-07-2020 05:59 PM
    Hello David,
    In some of the Historic buildings I have worked on, they were built at a time when wood was not always available, or just expensive.
    For example non-structural framing was pieced together wood scraps making the most out of what was on hand, I worked on three building this was the case.This might be the case with your trim. Labor was cheap but materials were not, piecing smaller boards together might have been more cost effective.
    So whoever the builder was he used what he had and didn't waste anything.
    Just a possibility.
     Hope this helps,
     Jane Marshall Loefgren AIA, Denver, CO

    ------------------------------
    Jane Loefgren AIA
    University of Denver
    Denver CO
    ------------------------------

    2024 HRC Taliesin West