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NCARB - On average, it takes 12.5 years to become an architect

  • 1.  NCARB - On average, it takes 12.5 years to become an architect

    Posted 08-02-2017 05:50 PM
    Edited by Sally Anne M. Smith AIA 08-03-2017 05:37 PM
    Latest from NCARB. Although an improvement from 15.6 years in 2008, this is still absolutely ridiculous. 


    ------------------------------
    Sally Anne Smith AIA
    Smith Architectural Studio
    Carmel CA
    ------------------------------
    2024 HRC Taliesin West


  • 2.  RE: NCARB - On average, it takes 12.5 years to become an architect

    Posted 08-03-2017 05:35 PM
    12.5 years is apparently the time to licensure, and thus to the title "ARCHITECT." Meanwhile, following graduation, six or so of those years are while doing what architects do. A focus on actual life may be worth quite a lot . . . may be not too far behind a focus on title. Is is all the more OK if firms honor the work with respectful salaries.

    ------------------------------
    Robert Harris FAIA
    Retired
    Harris Architecture and Urban Design
    Los Angeles CA
    ------------------------------

    2024 HRC Taliesin West


  • 3.  RE: NCARB - On average, it takes 12.5 years to become an architect

    Posted 08-07-2017 12:11 PM

    I have read over a sampling of comments regarding the path to Architectural Registration and can provide my opinion on some issues that are disturbing me.  So that you better understand my perspective, I was first registered in Pennsylvania in February of 1979.  The last thing that should be considered is registration upon graduation. 

     

    The biggest problem with College Graduates is that they don't possess the "Actual" construction experience.  I have always provided summer internships and have become familiar with their abilities or lack thereof.  In all instances my interns don't have a clue on what actually goes on at the construction site.  Of course we expose them to this but by no way do they understand the process of estimating a project nor do they have the common sense to realize the numbers that they are putting together from estimating books are not always correct nor do they know or understand material quantity jargon – ie - yards of concrete, square yards of paving, square yards of carpeting now being termed as square feet, modularity of concrete block and brick materials, and so it goes.

     

    You know, communication skills are just as important – it takes time and self-confidence – we all need to be salespeople – in this business it is most times who you know – just understanding all the contracts and specifications is another hurdle – project site problems/disputes and what should the best solution be – I could go on.

     

    I have had many young people come thru my doors with many possessing a willingness to learn not lead.  I will let them lead as they become more confident to do so and represent the firm.  I have a great staff who do have many of the positive traits above but not all of them.  I have been the boss of my firm since 1986 and I needed to make many of the hard decisions, since I had no one to work out a solution. 

     

    You all need to check back in the early or mid-1970's when there was one exam given in June only.  Then perhaps NCARB decided to create a "Professional Exam" given in December of every year for those candidates Graduating with a Bachelor of Architecture Degree by passing what was the 4 day June Exam.  Apparently that turned out a number of unsuitable Licensed Architects since most all states went back to the June "Qualifying" exam before taking the December "Professional" exam. 

     

    Keep in mind we need to work together with many other trades and maintain the respect of others to gain any respect from them.

     

    Anthony H. Visco Jr., RA-AIA

    Anthony H. Visco, Jr., Architects

    441 Market Street

    Williamsport, PA 17701

    (570) 322-3460│Fax (570) 322-8423

     

    www.ahvarchitects.com

     

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    2024 HRC Taliesin West


  • 4.  RE: NCARB - On average, it takes 12.5 years to become an architect

    Posted 08-08-2017 06:10 PM
    Totally agree Anthony - the emphasis needs to be holistic ...not just design and 3-D graphics.

    ------------------------------
    Nancy Perez Miller, AIA
    AR 17002 AA 3376
    NPMA LLC
    Florida Keys
    ------------------------------

    2024 HRC Taliesin West


  • 5.  RE: NCARB - On average, it takes 12.5 years to become an architect

    Posted 08-13-2017 07:32 AM
    Absolutely.
    In some countries before you can be accepted to start architecture, one has to have a year of construction site experience
    What I find is missing in most schools is field studies in each design task.
    We had 4 week field groups (class divided to teams of 3 or four) on each 'project type' in UK , then these were presented to by each group to the class in London.
    It was magical what we found out from each project type or town planning issue
    --

    Tapani Talo, AIA
    Principal

    New Address and company name: 

    Talo Architect
    8 Bryant Crescent, Apt 2 B
    White Plains, NY 10605, USA

    Tel: 1-914-645 2940 Fax: 1-914-313-1641




    2024 HRC Taliesin West


  • 6.  RE: NCARB - On average, it takes 12.5 years to become an architect

    Posted 08-08-2017 08:47 PM
    Well said, Anthony.
    Mary McDonald Price, AIA


    2024 HRC Taliesin West


  • 7.  RE: NCARB - On average, it takes 12.5 years to become an architect

    Posted 08-03-2017 05:50 PM
    Agreed. This is why licensure upon graduation is a path we should be advocating for. There is no reason why people can't take ARE exams as part of their studies, gain AXP hours during their summers working at firms, get their degree and become architects. At the same time, we should have a clear path to licensure that doesn't require a degree (and thousands of dollars of crippling debt). I think 5 years (10,000 hours) of experience plus passing the ARE exams should be an accepted path in all jurisdictions. 




    2024 HRC Taliesin West


  • 8.  RE: NCARB - On average, it takes 12.5 years to become an architect

    Posted 08-05-2017 01:43 PM
    I agree with Lucas Gray. Architects lost a lot when the NCARB cut out “Grand Father Architects”. We could use many of those in our firms. Many firms have no one who knows how to put a set of drawings together. They used to require 10 years of work in an office for them to be able to take the exam. I know men who got their license at 40 years of age and later, but, they kept plugging away. Thanks. .!


    2024 HRC Taliesin West


  • 9.  RE: NCARB - On average, it takes 12.5 years to become an architect

    Posted 08-03-2017 06:39 PM
    This  is  indeed a  very surprising statistic, but my  anecdotal experience says this  is not entirely  a problem of  institutional  barriers standing  in the  way of people  getting  licensed.  The  change  from offering licensing  exams once  or  twice a year to being  able to take  it  any time has  produced a mindset that  there  is no time  pressure to buckle  down and get this  hurdle  out  of the way.  It  can always be  put off  until next month.  Another  change  is  that  there  is  decreasing significance placed on having  a license.  When I started in the  profession, getting  a license was a  significant  step in career  advancement.  Today  it  is possible to advance through the  ranks of a  firm never  getting  licensed, and  become  the  CEO or a managing  principal.  Additionally  there  are alternative  career  paths  for  arch. grads that may be  just as  or more  lucrative without needing  a professional license, interiors, program mgmt, owner representation anyone?, and these  are tempting paths as well.
    Finally  there  are  institutional roadblocks.  I can't count the number  of  times that  the  licensing process  changed  over  the  course of my  career after  I was  licensed. At a time  in my  career when I had responsibility  to mentor new "intern architects" there were so many  individual situations  to keep track of it  became  a  huge  distraction.  
    So there are  lots  of  factors at work.  This  old school person would not  advocate watering  down the  licensing  process to achieve a  faster  path to licensure.  Revisiting the  concept  of  personal responsibility would be  my starting point.

    ------------------------------
    Eugene Ely AIA Emeritus, LEED AP
    San Jose, CA
    ------------------------------

    2024 HRC Taliesin West


  • 10.  RE: NCARB - On average, it takes 12.5 years to become an architect

    Posted 08-04-2017 05:42 PM
    Eugene, you make a lot of great points, especially regarding all of the other career opportunities luring people away from more traditional practice. 

    I'm curious as to what you consider "watering down the process." The way I see it is we have 3 hurdles we need to jump over to be licensed: 1) Accredited Degree 2) AXP experience hours 3) ARE exams. If we kept all of those requirements exactly as they are, but allowed them all to be completed concurrently  - Education, Practicum semesters or summer jobs to complete AXP, allow candidates to take the ARE while in school - wouldn't that keep the same high standards but allow licensure in a more reasonable timeline - say 5-6 years? I think this would be a reasonable way to ensure licensed architects have a base competency while making licensure more achievable for a diverse group of people.





    2024 HRC Taliesin West


  • 11.  RE: NCARB - On average, it takes 12.5 years to become an architect

    Posted 08-10-2017 01:21 PM
    Edited by Mark Schoeman AIA 08-10-2017 03:11 PM

     

    I would like to add to Mr. Ely's point.
    He is 100 percent correct about the importance we have placed on licensure (or lack thereof).  The convenience of being able to take exams as one pleases has eliminated what was once a large part of the culture of our office and profession's support systems.


    In addition to the external pressure of "getting it done," my experience as a candidate was that, for the month leading up to and certainly the week of the exams, the office leadership and managers were involved with the process.  Meetings and deadlines were scheduled to avoid that week, as there was an expectation that you would be taking the exams.  Office space, time and the more senior staff were made available for study sessions and coaching leading up to exams week.


    Over the past few decades, I've noticed the ways in which discussions on licensure have changed.  No longer an office- or profession-wide event, we're not as aware of our candidates' needs or schedules.  Often we must ask them to reschedule a test to accommodate an office deadline. 


    We've lost an important ritual aspect to licensure.  Beyond graduation, I can think of no other "rite of passage" in our profession.  In the past, we took our exams together at the same time and were notified of the results together.  We celebrated success and failure together, supporting each other and remaining part of a "class."  It seems that now we've lost an opportunity for camaraderie and our familia responsibility, and frankly, we've lost some pride.


    As we demand the concept of collaboration in our work, I find it ironic that we thrust one of the most important parts of our profession – licensure – into an individual task and responsibility.


    Why is this?  My cynical self feels it is about expediency.  It must be that this new system costs less to administer.  However, I believe that we must address what we've lost in the process.



    ------------------------------
    Mark Schoeman AIA
    Principal
    HMC Architects
    Los Angeles, CA
    ------------------------------

    2024 HRC Taliesin West


  • 12.  RE: NCARB - On average, it takes 12.5 years to become an architect

    Posted 08-04-2017 09:16 AM
    What is the average for engineers?

    Sent from my iPhone


    2024 HRC Taliesin West


  • 13.  RE: NCARB - On average, it takes 12.5 years to become an architect

    Posted 08-06-2017 12:06 PM

    I just got my license a couple of weeks ago and it took me 10 years and 11 months after I graduated. Neither the process or my education kept me from getting it sooner. I couldn't agree with Eugene's perspective more.

    The economy did play a part in me getting experience (or rather NOT able to get experience), but now that I have it, there is no way I would have been able to competently perform the duties of an architect without that office experience. I spent a lot of that 10 years underemployed (not enough to do at work) and unemployed (2008 hit several of us hard). I have worked with licensed architects in my career who had fewer years working than me and who clearly knew less than I did about the whole process but still had a license. I wouldn't have trusted them to work with a client or manage any project. 

    I could have passed all of my tests at least 3 years ago if I personally would have buckled down and knocked them out, but I do have a life and I put that in front of tests. I currently have co-workers who only have tests left in the process and who just put them off for their own personal reasons. This is not a bad thing, this is a personal thing. The stats don't ever show the number of people who just weren't in a hurry to do it, or decided to spend time with their toddler over studying. I don't personally know a single person who has felt hampered by the set up of the system. They all say they just have other priorities at this time and will work at their own pace on the tests. Too many people jump to the conclusion based on the stats that if it takes this long, it has to be the process, and in my personal experience that is simply not true.

    This isn't a case of "well-that's-what-I had-to-do-so-you-should-too". This is a retrospective view on realizing that we need to know what we're doing before we're licensed. I too have seen at least 4 changes to the IDP (now AXP) process in my time through it, many for the better as a general rule. I think the system should just stay where it's at for a few years to help eliminate confusion and the AIA should just continue to promote the importance of getting licensed and the rest of us just need to stop blaming the system for our own personal choices.



    ------------------------------
    Brenda Nelson Assoc. AIA
    Intern Architect
    Alley Poyner Macchietto Architecture, Inc.
    Omaha NE
    ------------------------------

    2024 HRC Taliesin West


  • 14.  RE: NCARB - On average, it takes 12.5 years to become an architect

    Posted 08-07-2017 05:51 PM
    ​I do believe that part of the time it take is driven by the person taking the test and what the requirements of the states architectural board is.  I'm in CA and it only requires 5 years of education / experience to start taking the test and a total of 8 years of total education and experience to become licensed. AXP and office experience all are completed concurrently.  You can get some credit for experience during school but that has to be reviewed by the state board.   It took me 3 1/2 years out of college to get my license but that was back in the days when the test was offered once a year with the graphic portion offered twice.  And that includes the time it took to schedule and pass CA supplemental exam.  Recent candidates in my office currently tend to take a lot longer between test because they can take them whenever they want.  There is no urgency in a lot of cases from what I have seen. I do think 12.5 years is a long time but its all relative.

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    Loangle Newsome AIA
    Calpo Hom & Dong Architects
    Sacramento CA
    ------------------------------

    2024 HRC Taliesin West


  • 15.  RE: NCARB - On average, it takes 12.5 years to become an architect

    Posted 08-14-2017 06:34 PM
    Architects can be there own worst enemy. 

    I am now both a licensed architect and a NASCLA licensed GC. The BUSINESS of architecture is the starting point of this adversarial relationship between the intern and the company. Let me break it down. 
                  
    1. Architectural Companies want one thing- nose in a CAD computer 10 hours a day. 
    2. Architects place way too much of their contractual money in the CD side of the contracts..
    3. Concept and Design Development will be given to the office design  "stars" or the principle/owner takes that section.of the  
         work. 
    4. Contract administration has been taken away from the architect. Yet if an owner finds an error in the drawings they still want 
         that  "error" paid for by the architect. CA work was our protection for E&O.  
     5. Architects have been "gamed" by sophisticated business people who have extracted the protection but kept the responsibility. 
     6. As much sympathy as been written about the intern needing "field experience" . The business of architecture has little time for                           field work and the offices are now a sea of deafeningly quiet CAD cubicles with pressure cooker deadlines and the need only for                          "permit detail" drawings . Only with constant vigilance or "high end" projects do my points above take a lower priority. 
      7. With the exception of a few greats like Samuel Mockbee - ours is a profession of the 1%. We rely on this ever diminishing                                    demographic of wealthy patrons hoping to throw us a bone. While they enrich themselves on our designs and hope to find                                  enough errors so they can justify not paying the full fees. 

    So 12.5 years is not near enough to be competent in this business . 2 decades at least to become savvy in the tricks of the developer class and their methods of extracting arbitration, striking CA work, scheduling traps, budget commitments, document responsibility abuse, chronology twisting, and constant threats of law suits. In order to be worthy of running a good operation, I am rapidly coming to the conclusion that the toughest profession is architecture. Our need to retain a thick skin is a life long commitment. I have never encountered another profession that needs our level of patience and experience.

    ------------------------------
    FHA Development LLC
    Owner, Licensed Architect in 25 states, Fully Licensed NASCLA General Contractor
    Celebrating 30 years of service
    Frank H. Austin

    3654 Graycliff Rd.
    Snellville, GA 30039
    P. 770-972-9594
    C. 770-630-0287
    frank.austin@comcast.net

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    2024 HRC Taliesin West