Technology in Architectural Practice

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Curious how much of BIM's claimed features are actually used.....

  • 1.  Curious how much of BIM's claimed features are actually used.....

    Posted 12-22-2014 10:09 AM
    This message has been cross posted to the following Discussion Forums: Small Project Practitioners and Technology in Architectural Practice .
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    I have owned and used Revit since 2000, since Autodesk bought it in 2002, and since I uploaded my first object to revitcity.com in 2004.  I got it because I could quickly get a 3D image to show my client and, if not drastically changed, use that to get a running start on construction documents.  It was not and still isn't as convenient of a 2D drafting tool as Autocad, but not having to start from scratch on plans, elevations, etc. after preliminaries are approved makes up for that, maybe.

    It appears that the majority of architects are using some kind of BIM program.  I am curious to what extent and "how close to the software seller/developers claims" are most architects actually using BIM? 

    I never leave (anymore than I have to) 3D objects in the final model.  3D cabinets, plumbing fixtures, furniture, etc. in every room creates a huge file, not worth the trouble.  I never have the site as a final BIM component.  The site tools in Revit are still pathetic and if there was a way to import an intelligent site into the BIM model it would be enormous.  If I have a standing seam metal roof, I still have to create a 3D model of that using sloped glazing with the same metal as the "one way only" mullions for the glass. The site plans are either created as 2D drawings in my office, many times in Autocad, or imported from the Civil Engineer using my title block, etc.  All of my final print sets are PDF's (printing directly from Revit burned me in the past so I now only do prints from PDF's) so assembling the engineers prints consists of them just sending me their sheets on my title block as PDF's.  I have phantom sheets in my Revit model for all of theirs so they automatically fill in the sheet list with their titles and numbers.

    So, there is no building model complete with every sidewalk, shrub, cabinet, roof, etc. all 3D, all available for accurate take-offs, every object full of helpful information, etc.  No reason for my client, contractors, consultants, code officials, or anyone else (the software seller/developer can think of to try to sell more software) to have their own version of my software, updated, subscribed, signed on for life.

    I can see my structural, HVAC, and electrical engineers having their own Revit models that we might merge for checking.  This combined model might be helpful for communicating to the contractors, owners, etc. general information but I see no way this replaces any drawings or even should be part of the contract documents.  It is just not complete.  There are too many "work arounds" still needed to trust it as an accurate document to build by.

    So, is this just a small firm way (last time I checked 75% of all licensed architects worked in firms of 4 or less employees) of doing it and the big firms have this all worked out and gladly furnish the BIM model as a complete and accurate representation of all things in the building and they gladly assume all legal, financial, and moral liability for anything wrong or incomplete?

    Those of you doing BIM, how far do you go before you jump off the BIM bandwagon and finish the contract documents with non-BIM drawings?  I am just curious.

    -------------------------------------------
    Darrel Odom AIA, LEED AP
    President
    Odom Peckham Architecture, Inc.
    Little Rock AR
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  • 2.  RE: Curious how much of BIM's claimed features are actually used.....

    Posted 12-23-2014 05:36 PM
    I've seen two local firms that market their use of Revit pretty heavily - despite the fact that their construction documents aren't actually done in it. Somewhat like you say, they use it for initial marketing images and then resort to 2D CAD or a lot of "fudging it" for construction documents.

    Honestly, I saw a lot of firms over the years that didn't make effective use of layers and blocks in 2D CAD. I cannot imagine them being able to make use of BIM.

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    Thomas Bank AIA
    Principal Architect
    Simply Stated Architecture, P.C.
    Lemoyne PA
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  • 3.  RE: Curious how much of BIM's claimed features are actually used.....

    Posted 12-29-2014 10:05 AM
    We are using Revit and use it from schemtics through CD's and as-builts. We do all of the drawings in it. We have a library of standard components and details we are building that speed up project specific details. And we keep fine tuning our template to make the next projects easier and cleaner to start from. But all in all, the projects come together much faster than drawing in 2D did. Well, for those who are at least basically proficient in the software.

    To build a wall and draw the plan with it and pop in the windows and put on a roof and generate a stair and simultaneously have the wall and stair sections ready for additional detail? Priceless.  The schedule builders alone save so much time.

    I was skeptical for a long time. Until I used it and got past baby beginner in it. Now, I love it. I'm an advanced beginner, probably. YouTube and a few forums are life and time savers. 

    When we purchased the software for our office, we paid for three days of training in our office with a trainer. And we hired them to help us set up a template to look like our current office standards. That helped us not start at ground zero. We have about 15 architects/interns/interior designers.

    We have a few people who are exceptional in sketchup and do a lot of their conceptual design in sketchup. You can import a sketchup model into revit and use it fairly easily. So I'm told. I haven't done it yet, but I've seen the results. 

    It is very hard to do fast alternate options, because you aren't dealing with lines, it's all components that are attached 3-dimensionally. That, I am still struggling with. The software certainly has room to grow for use in design. But it's an amazing new world when you get it working.

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    Pamela Leonard AIA
    Architect
    Jackson MS
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  • 4.  RE: Curious how much of BIM's claimed features are actually used.....

    Posted 12-31-2014 07:27 AM
    I was recently asked to work another local architecture firm to design a large guest house and larger main residence.  The client required the project be produced in BIM.  I am an ArchiCAD user.  I have been using it primarily until 2012, when I started using it for everything as Pamela stated below.

    My colleague was so impressed with the evolution of his design and smart the system worked that he immediately, cold-turkey dumped AutoCAD and purchased 10 seats of ArchiCAD for his office.  They use nothing else and are totally committed to using ArchiCAD for everything they do.

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    Greg Burke, AIA
    President
    Gregory John Burke | ARCHITECT, PA
    Vero Beach, Florida
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  • 5.  RE: Curious how much of BIM's claimed features are actually used.....

    Posted 01-14-2015 10:27 PM
    Thank you for your kind words Ronald.

    For anyone who is interested, here is some more information on PlusSpec: What it is and who we are:

    PlusSpec is a new building, design, planning and estimating BIM software that brings together the power of Computer Aided Drafting (CAD), Estimation, 3D Modelling, 2D Planning and Building Information Modelling (BIM), into one easy to use package. PlusSpec offers architects and designers total design freedom, and incorporates parametric modelling within the native SketchUp platform, so that any design option can be sketched out and explored quickly and easily in either BIM or free-form 3D. At PlusSpec, we share the SketchUp mantra: 'Great tools are ones you look forward to using...They let you do what you want without having to figure out how. They help with hard or boring tasks so that you can focus on being creative, or productive, or both'. PlusSpec has been designed by Architects and Builders, for Architects and Builders, as well as
    Engineers and Quantity Surveyors. As such, we wanted to create a BIM software that was available to everyone. In our opinion, this is the only way that the industry will become truly collaborative. Consequently, PlusSpec is affordable for all. Thus, startup Architects can have the same power as larger firms without having to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on software. Now small to medium Architectural firms can play on the same field, for a fraction of the cost. This is a fully comprehensive design BIM software, which enables you to output and incorporate 2D, 3D, 4D (time), 5D (cost), and in the future releases, 6D (Green/ESD) and 7D (Asset/Facilities Management).
    Feel free to check out our website: https://www.plusspec.com/
    Or, just leave a comment. We love hearing feedback.


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    Andrew Dwight
    BIM manager
    RubySketch
    Sydney
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  • 6.  RE: Curious how much of BIM's claimed features are actually used.....

    Posted 01-15-2015 08:15 PM
    Pamela we work with several architects that use Revit / Archicad and we are collaborating freely with them in IFC. It is easier to assign IFC attributes to geometry created with Plusspec as the geometry is layered automatically. Essentially PlusSpec is creating load bearing walls, veneers, gutters, roofs, slabs and windows in a component or group form that are assigned to a layer.  This helps a lot when it comes to assigning the IFC attributes to vast amounts of geometry in one go as it can be done by simply turning layers on and off and assigning the appropriate IFC attribute to the components showing on screen. 
    Efficiency is the name of the game,  well that is what the boss (My wife LOL ) keeps on telling me.
    Happy New Year. B-)

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    Andrew Dwight
    BIM manager
    RubySketch
    Sydney
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  • 7.  RE:Curious how much of BIM's claimed features are actually used.....

    Posted 12-23-2014 06:08 PM
    I have written 14 books on BIM software, six of them on Revit. I was the first person to talk about BIM software at an AIA national convention. For ten years I wrote a monthly article in CADALYST magazine on AEC software. I have twice been an Autodesk Gunslinger. Except for small exceptions, I use Revit features. I use Revit in the same manner as stated previously in this thread. I also believe that the program, like most BIM software, has plateaued in the last four years. I don't need most of the improvements, but like most users, I am forced to maintain a yearly subscription because the software is not backward comparable. Autodesk's push seems to be aimed at the larger firms which I do not have. We are 200% more productive than 2D CAD, but none of the recent Revit improvements have increase productivity.

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    H. Edward Goldberg AIA
    Architect
    HEGRA Architects
    Baltimore MD
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  • 8.  RE: Curious how much of BIM's claimed features are actually used.....

    Posted 12-23-2014 06:12 PM
    Darryl:

    I'll start at the end of your post. We do everything from early SD through CA using Revit. The question isn't when do we jump out of BIM, we never do, but rather how soon do we begin to create the model. The model serves as the basis for design exploration and presentations, discipline coordination, cost estimating and on and on and finally creating documentation. With the exception of Civil Engineers we won't use non-BIM consultants. 

    Drawings, schedules and specifications now start with the BIM; they are information based on the BIM and remain up to date as the BIM evolves, rather than 3 separate silos of imperfectly related documents.

    Adopting a BIM workflow has improved our quality, reduced our staff needs and improved the economics of our practice. By the way we are about 40 including CM staff.

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    Richard Speicher AIA
    Principal
    Weber Murphy Fox Architects
    Erie PA
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  • 9.  RE: Curious how much of BIM's claimed features are actually used.....

    Posted 12-23-2014 06:38 PM

    I work in a large EA firm and we use Microstation and Revit. I personally have not been modeling for a while so my info might be outdated but I know that all our engineering and architecture disciplines model their work (civil, structural, MEP, arch, and interiors) so we can get Interference checks (Automated checks and continuous visual checks). We use 3D walk-throughs of our models so clients and designers can better understand what they are getting and we get great rendering opportunities from our models. We have modeled to capture accurate quantities and we have used our models to ensure that all materials are included in our specs but these are still project specific choices. We are anxious for the day when we can accurately study daylighting, heat loss, energy consumption and structural integrity from these models but as far as I know we can't get this info from our design model and still have to create separate analytical models to study performance issues.

    As far as I know we still deliver 2d drawings and are still reluctant to turrn over models to contractors, although our models have been used during construction to clarify the building geometry.  Structural fabricator still build their own models for steel fabrication models.  I have heard of contractors using hand held devices to virtually see what they are building before it has been irrected but I have never seen how that was accomplished. 

    I would say that most of value we get out of BIM is the visualization and the interference checking. 

      

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    Ed Pieterick AIA, LEED AP, GGP
    Proj Manager and Senior Technologis for Sustainable Design
    CH2M HILL
    CORVALLIS OR
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  • 10.  RE: Curious how much of BIM's claimed features are actually used.....

    Posted 12-24-2014 02:07 PM
    I've been using ArchiCAD as my BIM authoring tool since 1997. I model the project(s) to the level of accurate "live" sections/elevations of the model to a 1/4" = 1'-0" scale. Anything that I don't want to have to "draft" I model, this includes hardware, trim, mouldings, etc. Models stay intact and "live" throughout all of the project phases.

    Most of the work I do is multi-family high-rise and mixed-use commercial. I find that the only time file size issues occur is when we import non-native elements and 2D work from consultants into the project files. This rarely happens, but is easily fixed on most projects.

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    David Larrew AIA
    Owner
    archiSOLUTIONS
    Austin TX
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  • 11.  RE: Curious how much of BIM's claimed features are actually used.....

    Posted 12-31-2014 12:27 AM
    I've been reading everyone's thoughts and opinions and they are all make very good points.  I believe we need to ask ourselves a very basic question about BIM....why are we even using it?  What is it's goal?

    In the end, the final result of a BIM model is to be the most accurate virtual representation of the actual physical 3D building.  It reduces the risk involved in the design, coordination, and construction of the built building for ALL stakeholders.  With today's technology, this can be accomplished with 2D and 3D technology.  We cannot do 100% 3D.  It's just not there yet.  There are so many tools to use for combining 2D and 3D in the final deliverable.  Revit is a great tool for the Architect.  Navisworks is a great tool for the General Contractor.  HydraCAD is a great tool for 3D Fire Protection.  Solibri is a great tool for Model Checking.  PlanGrid and Bluebeam are great tools for 2D documentation.  And so on....

    No matter what method we use, we're on the right track.  We always need to keep in mind that we are here for the client most of all and that collaboration between all stakeholders is the only way to get a project completed on time and on budget.

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    Adam Hockley Assoc. AIA
    Bartlett Cocke General Contractors
    San Antonio TX
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  • 12.  RE: Curious how much of BIM's claimed features are actually used.....

    Posted 01-01-2015 09:23 PM
    "We cannot do 100% 3D." That right there, folks, is a self-fulfilling prophecy.

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    Charles Graham AIA
    Architect
    O'Neal, Inc.
    Greenville SC
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  • 13.  RE: Curious how much of BIM's claimed features are actually used.....

    Posted 01-02-2015 05:33 PM
    Given this last response... are we guiding the design process or are we merely reacting to what Revit and ArchiCad manufacturers want us to purchase? In  other words, is the technology, which we still don't fully comprehend, guiding us? 

    Furthermore, how is this BIM technology really a saviour or hype?  How is BIM segregating our offices?  Given that most directors and principals don't use the BIM programs, how does this manifest itself economically?  are these programs truly efficient? they engaging all who need to understand all aspects of a project? 

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    Peter Lippman Assoc. AIA, REFP
    EIW Architects
    Perth
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  • 14.  RE: Curious how much of BIM's claimed features are actually used.....

    Posted 01-05-2015 09:55 PM
    I've been reading many of the responses to this topic now and over the years. I think many are skeptical out of lack of experience with the BIM technology and many often try to use it with the mentality they have grown to understand from using 2D programs or even paper. You don't use a Skil Saw to cut a piece of paper, nor do you use an Xacto knife to cut a 2x12.

    I've been using ArchiCAD since 1997 and spent about 5 years as a consultant helping a firm switch from MicroStation to ArchiCAD. At first I made all the same mistakes for years and didn't really understand how to really take advantage of how to use BIM for the tool it was intended to be. I can't speak in terms of how Revit works, but I understand it has enough similarities to ArchiCAD that most should be able to interpret.

    I've created over a thousand 3D models over the years from a chicken coup to 80,000sf schools. As a sole practitioner, I get over 40 unique houses and some light commercial buildings under construction per year. ArchiCAD has enabled me to create this many real buildings with great efficiency from the first client meeting to the final permit drawings. 

    Always kill as many birds as you can with one stone.

    Duplication of work is one of the greatest efficiency drains on a project. Never redraw something in 2D if you can use a 3D element instead. If you show a dashed line on the first floor plan to represent a roof edge above, then use the Slab Tool to create your soffit. Don't draw a 2D line on a visible layer and a 3D Slab on a hidden layer because you have to change both if changes are required...and changes are always required. Always get as much out of the 3D tools as you can. If you are a Duplicator, you're a time waster. There shouldn't be the 3D model and the 2D documentation as two separate projects in the same file. If you're doing this, you just don't get BIM.

    Never show a client 2D elevations or sections when you can show them a 3D model.

    This is a very difficult concept to get across to a firm Owner when they come from the world of hand drafting. They always want "just the front elevation" for the meeting tomorrow. You must quit thinking in terms of sheets or separate drawings. Be patient and build the model. It takes a little more effort on the front end, but will save you time in the long run. Clients cannot understand what they're looking at when you show them an elevation, thus they don't really know what they're agreeing to when you ask for an approval. I never get tired of hearing my clients tell me that their finished building looks just like the model. A 3D image is far easier for them to "see" and more valuable in terms of moving on from Schematic Design to Construction Drawings.

    My clients never see a 2D elevation or section until I give them their final Construction Drawing set. As long as I'm not spending time with 2D dimensions, notes, and embellishments, I can make changes to the 3D model very quickly and I get approvals to move on very quickly. The inefficiency everyone complains about comes with having to update 3D model information and all the 2D information including duplication (see above). Traditional design services and processes are incredibly inefficient with BIM. You must learn to let go and try to use the model only for Schematic Design. Save the 2D stuff as much as you can for the final drawings. You'd be surprised how few notes and dimensions you need to show a client when you give them pretty 3D images.

    BUILD your building from the beginning!

    I'm sure Revit has complex walls like ArchiCAD. My Wall Tool is set up to show all the skins in a wall system. I can see the masonry veneer, the air space, the sheathing, the stud wall, and the gypsum board. The line weight for each element is set to a medium weight, so at 1/4":1'-0" the sheathing and the gypsum board lines bleed together and read as one thick line. I know my face of wood stud is sitting on the edge of my concrete foundation below from the beginning. I don't know how many times I've seen people sketching with the computer using a wall system as described and only using 2 lines to represent the inside and outside surface of the wall. Where is the stud? How do you know where to place the concrete foundation below? Use paper to sketch an idea, use the computer to BUILD your building. Many of my trainees in the past didin't want to think about designing as building. They want to sketch. When I get on the computer, I'm working out construction problems and making good decisions from the beginning. Why is this wall spaced 12'-2 33/64" from the other wall? Why aren't you using 8" increments with masonry from the beginning? I spend much less time going back and massaging a design into reality. Doing this quickly takes experience with the computer and construction.

    I come from that generation of Architect that was still able to get a good paying construction job when I was in school...back when those kind of jobs used to exist. I never design a building I couldn't build myself. I spend very little time on the job site. Because I use the BIM tool to create a real working model, my drawings have few errors. If a roof isn't lining up or a stair doesn't work, they didn't "Build it JUST like the drawings." Because I already built the whole building, I can find errors in the field rather quickly if a problem comes up. It helps to push the envelope while using standard construction concepts. The more you reinvent the wheel in unnecessary ways, the greater potential for spending excessive hours at the job site. Because of all this, I can get over 40 houses under construction in a year by myself. This wouldn't happen if I was drafting on paper or with FlatCAD.

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    Eric Rawlings AIA
    Owner
    Rawlings Design, Inc.
    Decatur GA
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  • 15.  RE: Curious how much of BIM's claimed features are actually used.....

    Posted 01-02-2015 06:39 PM
    BIM has one major problem which is its fatal flaw: to maintain such a database is prohibitively expensive. In addition, the expense to confect the 3D model has to be offset with savings elsewhere, which to date it has not been. I pioneered CAD. In 1981 I bought a 3D modeling system which one could extract 2D perspectives from the 3D model. The 3D model took 35 to 50 man hours to build, from which as many perspective views as on wanted could be extracted, 10 to over 100. However, I could hand draw a perspective of any building that we were designing in 3 to 4 hours from any vantage point. The only reason to do the work on computer was the multiple views, or fast forward to today, to do an animation. A single perspective is way faster when done by hand.

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    Ladd Ehlinger AIA
    President, Ehlinger & Associates, PC Architects
    Professional Focus Group
    Metairie LA
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  • 16.  RE: Curious how much of BIM's claimed features are actually used.....

    Posted 01-03-2015 12:56 PM


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    James O'Brien FAIA
    Williams/O'Brien Associates, Inc.
    Saint Paul MN
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    If you have not tried ArchiCAD I would recommend it. It is easy to learn and to use without taking classes. The tutorials are really all that is needed to get up and running. It is very comprehensive if you want it to be and a great progrem even if you do not take advantage of all of its potential. I started with it in the mid 90's at the age of 60 and still use it almost every day. I can not understand why many more firm principals do not use a program that is so productive and as easy to learn and use as ArchiCAD happens to be.



  • 17.  RE: Curious how much of BIM's claimed features are actually used.....

    Posted 01-03-2015 11:37 PM

    In an effort to maximize value and efficiency for AIA architects:

    What if big AIA firms (and others) sold their cad files (mostly obsolete to them and their "competition") via the A[I]A-X  to small firms (as authorized) who could greatly benefit? - for $ billions, just saying...

    AIA architects could "design a better world" - together as we perpetually compensate each other to improve and update cad / bim files on subsequent projects, and utilize modeled "best practices" as a starting point for new projects.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yIjJgKGIHg
    -------------------------------------------
    David Ways AIA, NCARB, LEED AP
    Arcticstar Design, Inc.
    Bradenton FL
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  • 18.  RE: Curious how much of BIM's claimed features are actually used.....

    Posted 01-05-2015 07:17 PM
    BIM is the heart of our firm. Our firm designs airports, just as a point of reference as to the size of the projects for which we use BIM.
    Our primary BIM software is Revit but we can work in AutoCAD Architecture should the project require. The amount of data that is held within our 3D models is so detailed that quite often the contactors and subs will refer to the Navisworks Models that we output to resolve issues before we even reach the point of RFIs. With some of our projects the deliverable to the client and/or contractor is the Building Information Model (...that's right...no sheets...just the model.)

    This BIM work flow that we have developed is not an easy one though. It requires constant training from the top down. Our Principles push to learn more about what BIM and do for the firm and our youngest hires rush to explore what we can do with it next. In short we are committed to BIM.

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    Joshua Stephens Assoc. AIA
    Design Professional II
    Fentress Architects
    CO
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  • 19.  RE: Curious how much of BIM's claimed features are actually used.....

    Posted 01-11-2015 06:00 PM
    It is great to see you sharing the model at an early stage Joshua I believe it is the key to efficiently reducing job cost onsite errors and time frame.

    At AAD Build we use BIM for residential construction. I found Revit an Navis works to be out of reach for the smaller contractor not only in price also in usability.

     We created and use a Plugin for Sketchup called Plusspec which has been designed specifically for BIM in the residential industry. The best thing about Plusspec is it works with Sketchup so we can now share the models with everybody via IFC or native Sketchup, yet more importantly the file size is email-able most get a good grasp of navigation in Sketchup as scenes can be set up which relate to location layer and style. 

    Essentially PlusSpec does the "Information Model and BOQ" whilst creating scene layout and Sketchup allows clients , builders and consultants to collaborate and annotate inside the model.  For residential construction it is the best way I have found to get more done in less time.  Sketchup combined with Plusspec gives the residential design and construction industry exactly what it needs. 

    I hope this helps the smaller architectural firms& Design build firms implement BIM more efficiently into the majority of their work. 

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    Andrew Dwight
    BIM manager
    AAD Build , RubySketch
    Sydney
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  • 20.  RE: Curious how much of BIM's claimed features are actually used.....

    Posted 01-12-2015 10:17 PM
    Andrew,

    This is the first I have seen of plusspec.  All I can say is WOW!  A very timely program.
    It looks like a great data base link for sketchup.  I have been working in Afghanistan for the past three years and Sketchup was the tool of choice.  SInce it was free I had no problem with procurement and the Afghans could benefit as well.
    I completed the entire base plan in sketchup for the Afghan turn over, a simplified master plan for the Afghans that they could use.
    I knew that some one somewhere must be working on a data link that would have been helpful for my master plan.  I am so glad to have found you guys.

    I am very excited to work plusspec into my concept work, and a few houses also.

    Ron Barstow @aol.com

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    Ronald Barstow AIA
    Knoxville TN
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