Technology in Architectural Practice

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How often do you really benefit from upgrading Autodesk.....

  • 1.  How often do you really benefit from upgrading Autodesk.....

    Posted 04-09-2014 09:29 AM
    ...software.  How often is the upgrade process, learning curve, etc. really worth the benefits received?  We are a four person firm, I have used Autodesk products for over thirty years, and I can't remember many times at all that I went "man this is great, I am really glad I upgraded."  I did think that when I dumped Autocad and bought Revit in 2004 but Revit wasn't owned by Autodesk then, Revit had those extremely helpful real Architects you could call for help, and it was worth every penny plus every inch of the learning curve.

    The reason I ask this is next January, Autodesk has announced they will no longer upgrade anything if you are not on Subscription.  At the beginning of the Recession, we dumped our Subscriptions and, knock on wood, have never regretted it.  Now that the economy is better and cash is flowing better, we were considering going back on Subscription (more because of all the dire financial consequences implied by Autodesk and not because we really want to upgrade), but, now are having second thoughts.
    The cost of upgrading and the (unused and unmissed Subscription services) fee, right now, are not that much less than buying a new seat.  Our present software works just fine and we are not even sure we will want to upgrade all of our seats even if we get the upgrades.  So, if it ain't broke why fix it?  Autodesk seems to say "we will get every penny that you would have paid for Subscription PLUS a late fee so you will be very sorry" but there may be another option.

    We are thinking about upgrading one seat to the Building Design Suite Pro thingy that has the latest Revit, Autocad, Revit MEP, etc., etc. keeping it on subscription and leaving the rest of our seats alone.  We can then import, export, open anyone else's file, render in the cloud, use the cloud memory, etc. (if we want or need to) to our hearts content from that one seat.  When Autodesk produces a new and improved version of its Software that we really want (we are guessing every ten years based on past history) we buy new seats then for the best price we can find and do it all over again.  At that time, probably all of the Autodesk software will be in the cloud, only available through Subscriptions, so I don't really expect to do this again but do expect it all to work long enough to make it the better choice financially.

    I would be happy for anyone (including those of you madly in love with Autodesk or extremely reliant on them for your income and who feel the need to always defend them) to tell me why this is a stupid idea.

    -------------------------------------------
    Darrel Odom AIA, LEED AP
    President
    Odom Peckham Architecture, Inc.
    Little Rock AR
    -------------------------------------------


  • 2.  RE:How often do you really benefit from upgrading Autodesk.....

    Posted 04-10-2014 06:38 PM
    I wish it were confined to Autodesk - a platform I left years ago and have never looked back to. Personally, I'm dealing with it for the Adobe Creative Suite. For that, they've gone to an annual subscription that offers you access to their entire range of applications. But I do not use the entire range and only upgraded about every other cycle, so their annual subscription is a significant increase in cost for me. So I have a copy of CS6 - the last physical product - and am looking at other options for the day that it no longer does what I need of it.

    It sure would be nice to have a captive audience providing your income like that. I wish that I could bill my clients an annual fee for architectural services so that I could have a guaranteed income. 

    The three main issues I have with the subscription model:
    You lose all access to the applications when the subscription expires (at least the case with Adobe - not sure what Autodesk is doing). So not only am I unable to create any new work with Photoshop if I allow my subscription to expire, but I also cannot access the website I created with Dreamweaver or the newsletter I created with InDesign to make changes or updates to those.
    We all have had the experience of upgrades that had either actual bugs or otherwise did not function with our workflow. I remember that the old standard was not to upgrade to the odd number versions of AutoCAD because of all the problems they had. With a subscription, you don't have a choice on upgrades.
    There is less incentive for the software to make improvements. If you're upgrading a physical product, you have to make a compelling reason to entice customers to buy the product or upgrade from their current product. With a subscription, they're already locked in and have to pay whether they get any benefit from the "new" product or not.

    Personally, I feel that there needs to be a real push back from customers to let software companies know that we won't accept the subscription model.

    -------------------------------------------
    Thomas Bank AIA
    Principal Architect
    Simply Stated Architecture, P.C.
    Lemoyne PA
    -------------------------------------------






  • 3.  RE:How often do you really benefit from upgrading Autodesk.....

    Posted 04-11-2014 06:11 PM


    -------------------------------------------
    Robert Woodhull AIA
    Principal
    Robert L. Woodhull, A.I.A. Architects
    Plano TX
    -------------------------------------------
    Problem is that as small firms even if we all told Autodesk or Adobe to take their disc and sit on them, they would just laugh and point to the large multi state/national firms with projects going on around the globe and say that is their true customer base. We just get to use the software that they say they need. Even the larger firms that I have done consulting work with do not use all the products at all of their workstations. They do get some benefit with the server based systems, in that several people access the different software modules at the same time from one license.

    My AutoCad 2004 still runs just fine, as long as the other consultants remeber to save down from their newer license.

    Rob




  • 4.  RE:How often do you really benefit from upgrading Autodesk.....

    Posted 04-14-2014 08:02 AM


    -------------------------------------------
    George Cary AIA
    Principal
    Basalay, Cary & Alstadt Architects, Ltd
    Ottawa IL
    -------------------------------------------
    We have used Datacad for over twenty years.  It takes days not weeks to become 2D proficient.  It is faster than Autocad.  It has 3D capability.  It is much less expensive than Autocad and does not require annual fee.







  • 5.  RE:How often do you really benefit from upgrading Autodesk.....

    Posted 04-10-2014 08:18 PM
    Interesting conversation you've started Darryl.  

    The lessons learned in surviving the recession along with the rapidly increasing cost of software has many of us thinking much more critically about this aspect of our business model.  While you may have hit on a logical path - be aware that when you upgrade you give up the right to use that seat's earlier version; so you'd have one less seat effectively.  With the lack of 'version' interoperability that occurs with revit, you would also of course not be able to go 'back' from that one current seat to the other non-upgraded seats - so in the end this approach may create for you a bottle neck or operational headache that outweighs the savings.

    I have been working on exploring the potential for the AIA National to negotiate special license terms and/or rates for AIA members in the world of our software tools.  I've gotten into conversations far enough to see that it could be a real possibility at least with some of the major vendors (but perhaps not all)

    I'd love to hear from others as to the degree of interest in this realm as an AIA member benefit; and what kinds of considerations would be of interest (besides special pricing).  For example: - access to a pool of 'shared licenses' that were spread among many smaller firms; or upgrade terms that allowed for longer 'stable' periods (say every 3 years instead of every year); etc.


    -------------------------------------------
    Michael Malinowski AIA
    AIA Director - California Region
    Applied Architecture, Inc.
    Sacramento CA
    -------------------------------------------








  • 6.  RE:How often do you really benefit from upgrading Autodesk.....

    Posted 04-13-2014 10:18 AM
    Michael,

    According to the owner of one reseller, ECAD, he says you can, after upgrading to 2015, initiate the software in up to three earlier versions if you want to.  He said the danger is if you aren't careful when you save to be sure you are saving in an earlier version and accidentally save in 2015, that save is forever in 2015 and only openable and savable in 2015.  He says you can't take any version of Revit and save back to an earlier version.  So, you lose that work, if you want that project to stay in 2012 or earlier.  So, if he is right, I think I can upgrade the one seat to the 2015 suite thingy, and continue to do all my projects in 2012 in my firm without losing that seat.

    I ran this whole scenario by him and he said that it all would work accept for that one issue.  Although his professional CAD career was for a Civil Engineer, he does some architectural work for a friend doing hotels on the side, so he is one of the more knowledgeable tech support guys that I run into.  Most of the revolving door of tech support from resellers in my area have only worked for architectural firms as a tech guy, not as an actual producer of architectural projects.  They are usually guys who just know the book/manual and have never actually dealt with the quirks and shortcomings in the software.  How are they in your area?


    -------------------------------------------
    Darrel Odom AIA, LEED AP
    President
    Odom Peckham Architecture, Inc.
    Little Rock AR
    -------------------------------------------








  • 7.  RE:How often do you really benefit from upgrading Autodesk.....

    Posted 04-14-2014 06:24 PM

    Hi Darrel
    My comment was based on a quick perusal of the software license terms ... not exactly a fun read of course ... check it out for yourself as I'd guess your reseller can't do anything to alter them ...

    Cheers
    Mike
     
    -------------------------------------------
    Michael Malinowski AIA
    AIA Director - California Region
    Applied Architecture, Inc.
    Sacramento CA
    -------------------------------------------








  • 8.  RE:How often do you really benefit from upgrading Autodesk.....

    Posted 04-16-2014 10:39 AM
    My apologies to Michael and William and any others for my misunderstanding of my reseller's comments.  He was saying that I just need to initiate Revit 2011, 2012, whatever previous version that I have owned and then use that version of the software to open an older project, work on it, and save in that older version.  I thought he was saying that 2015 could do that when he was saying that I could do that by NOT starting the 2015 Revit and starting the older version instead.

    His basic comment about "yes, you can do what you are considering" seems still valid now that the way to do that has been clarified.

    -------------------------------------------
    Darrel Odom AIA, LEED AP
    President
    Odom Peckham Architecture, Inc.
    Little Rock AR
    -------------------------------------------








  • 9.  RE:How often do you really benefit from upgrading Autodesk.....

    Posted 04-10-2014 09:04 PM
    Autodesk will not support software more than three years old.
    Revit is not backwards compatible, so if you collaborate with others, you are lost.
    Improvements are in baby steps, but they are needed.
    And Autodesk purchased Revit in 2002.

    -------------------------------------------
    Charles Graham AIA
    Architect
    O'Neal, Inc.
    Greenville SC
    -------------------------------------------








  • 10.  RE:How often do you really benefit from upgrading Autodesk.....

    Posted 04-11-2014 06:03 PM
    I joke / threaten all the time that we'll just go back to pencil and paper.  I'll never forget the commands necessary to switch from text to lines to poche'. But I am dating myself.  

    The only real solution to stopping the extortion from AutoDesk is competition. When you own 90% of the market and buy up every new idea that comes along, the result is your "clients" have almost no where else to turn.

    -------------------------------------------
    Michael Asaro AIA
    Principal
    Delawie
    San Diego CA
    -------------------------------------------








  • 11.  RE:How often do you really benefit from upgrading Autodesk.....

    Posted 04-14-2014 09:23 PM
    What you fail to realize, is that all the competition is doing the same thing. And it's not limited to design software. All the majors are doing it.

    What I am hearing is just a useless rant against change.

    -------------------------------------------
    Charles Graham AIA
    Architect
    O'Neal, Inc.
    Greenville SC
    -------------------------------------------








  • 12.  RE:How often do you really benefit from upgrading Autodesk.....

    Posted 04-14-2014 09:24 PM
    Switch to ArchiCAD.  You'll be happier, and we can back-save to an earlier version.  I moved to a non-Autodesk firm last year and love it!  There's also Sketchup Pro, DraftSight, IntelliCAD, AccelliCAD, TurboCAD, Vectorworks... small firms have options, and though they aren't perfect, neither is AutoCAD.

    That being said, the intent of the yearly subscription upgrade does make long-term sense, if only because of the learning curve.  Each year only brings reasonable changes that can be absorbed into your normal workflow, with minimal training.  The firm I just left is still using AutoCAD 2011, set to a Classic work environment, with the Ribbon turned off.  Their workflow hasn't changed since about AC2004.  If and when they have to upgrade, it will be painful, especially if they move to AutoCAD Architecture. They will have to use the Ribbon, the Menus and Toolbars are gone, and many of the dialogs are unrecognizable.  I occasionally have to use the new ACA, and even though I'm a tech guy, and a software glutton, I find it infuriatingly difficult to do anything.  I know my former colleagues will be in trouble, and will need to spend a bunch of unbillable time to learn the new software, which I'm guessing will cause one person to quit and another to retire early.  Had they kept up with the changes, and adopted the new interface while they were still under subscription, they would be up to speed.  So, do you want your pain in small doses, or all at once?

    Also, keep in mind, they would be fools to turn down money.  The threats are empty.  In a couple of years, they will offer some sort of special discount to firms with older licenses (to a point).  NCARB does the same thing, and has a General Amnesty on dues every few years.  So if you're willing to wait, there will be another chance at some point, and perhaps at that time you can go through the upgrade cost without breaking your back, when you're ready.

    -------------------------------------------
    Charles Kottka AIA
    Architect, AIA AZ
    Orcutt | Winslow
    Phoenix AZ
    -------------------------------------------


  • 13.  RE:How often do you really benefit from upgrading Autodesk.....

    Posted 04-14-2014 10:44 PM
    For years we have been an Autodesk fan, but after they visited us forcibly in quick succession and commented that we could not use the older version of  the software because we were under subscription. They forced us to upgrade our hardware and install new versions. All this happened after we stopped subscription and that was the time when we decided to shift to ZWCAD, a Chinese software but works for us.

    In terms of usefulness, Autodesk subscription is useful ONLY to get upgrades and nothing more.

    They have disappointed us. 

    -------------------------------------------
    Manu Malhotra Intl. Assoc. AIA
    Founder Partner/Director
    RSMS Architects
    New Delhi

    -------------------------------------------








  • 14.  RE:How often do you really benefit from upgrading Autodesk.....

    Posted 04-15-2014 07:48 AM
    I have been using Revit almost exclusively since 2003 and aside from some early feature enhancements and a UI makeover, the software really hasn't changed much in 10 years. I've seen the large, multi-national firms invest their time and money into converting to Revit - with the belief that the platform would grow over time. Unfortunately, this has not been the case and it is obvious that Autodesk has other priorities such as the media and entertainment industries. Their business model is to provide more software and thus keep charging more and more each year - even if the titles they add to the bundles and suites have little to no value to our business. This model was readily apparent during last year's product launch address in which Amar Hanspal was proud in his observation that 'the more software we make (aka 'acquire'), the more our customers will buy!' It was this statement and the one that claims free software is much harder to develop than the expensive and complex applications that have really aggravated me in recent months.

    Is Revit a horrible application? No. If it was, our firm would have stopped using it a long time ago. But it does need some improvement in ways that would not mean sexy new features to sell new licenses - and that's what seems apparent when you look at the list of 'enhancements' over the past 5 years. If you're using Revit in a large firm on large, complex projects, you spend most of your time planning how to organize your project so that you don't break Revit and your team doesn't grind to a halt. You are finding ways to use workarounds to the inherent limitations of software features that don't quite work as they were intended (groups, design options, linked models, worksets, etc.). We and many others have given Autodesk our Top 10 requests for improvement and even given them a Top 5, but the answers mostly come back that they are too difficult to implement. But wait, I thought that the free software (the mobile apps like Tinkerbox) were the ones that were difficult to develop....? 

    And don't get me started on the lack of backwards compatibility - at least a few versions, like AutoCAD allows. This has caused so much aggravation when dealing with consultants who are not on subscription, or those who don't have a support team who can build the deployments and upgrade content and template libraries EVERY YEAR. And now Autodesk is becoming MORE restrictive in how we can use their software?!

    It's a tough decision, but the only answer is competition. We must look again at the solutions offered by Bentley, Vectorworks, Graphisoft and others.

    -------------------------------------------
    James Vandezande AIA
    HOK, Inc.
    New York NY
    -------------------------------------------








  • 15.  RE:How often do you really benefit from upgrading Autodesk.....

    Posted 04-16-2014 10:55 PM
    @Continuation to James's observation

    Very aptly put "If you're using Revit in a large firm on large, complex projects, you spend most of your time planning how to organize your project so that you don't break Revit and your team doesn't grind to a halt".

    Large firms or medium firms would have resources to upgrade but my consultants would not upgrade frequently and that forces us to use CAD based exports. We cannot control work flows of consultants.

    Revit is good and is a way of future but Autodesk must look at pricing and subscription. Frequent upgrades make no commercial sense. I rather buy a New License every 4 years (& replace my workstation) than keep upgrading every year.

    -------------------------------------------
    Rohit Jain
    Founder Partner/Director
    RSMS Architects PVT LTD
    New Dhelhi

    -------------------------------------------








  • 16.  RE:How often do you really benefit from upgrading Autodesk.....

    Posted 04-17-2014 05:47 PM
    Does the Holy Grail (at least in Autodesk's mind) of a complete and accurate Revit project (BIM) model truly exist?  I am talking about where every cabinet, light fixture, duct, door, window, wall system, roof system, etc. is in the project, 3D, and loaded with accurate information for take offs, pricing, conflict check, etc.

    The only way I know to create a realistic looking 3D model of a standing seam metal roof in Revit is to make it "sloped glazing", turn off the window framing in one direction, convert the glazing to metal, and make the mullions shape crudely mimic the standing seam profile.  How in the world does THAT provide accurate data available from the Building Information Model?!?!?!?  Yet, "work arounds" like that exist all over the real Revit project world according my experience and conversations with other Revit practitioners.  Does anyone using Revit's pathetic site tools actually have the site improvements as part of their Building Information Model?  Maybe if they buy Eaglepoint's add-on software but I can't imagine doing it in Revit and getting anything usable.

    Autodesk just seems to be in a rush to force every owner, subcontractor, contractor, consultant, AND building code officials to buy and keep up to date (lots of Subscriptions) their own seats of Revit software by promoting BIM projects as the solution that generate partial, incomplete, and very general information at best.

    I know this is getting off topic a little but you started it and I just couldn't let the opportunity to vent a little go by without joining in.

    -------------------------------------------
    Darrel Odom AIA, LEED AP
    President
    Odom Peckham Architecture, Inc.
    Little Rock AR
    -------------------------------------------








  • 17.  RE:How often do you really benefit from upgrading Autodesk.....

    Posted 04-17-2014 10:33 PM
    Hey, your company is big enough, so why don't you guy's go and write....

     oh yea, never mind...

    Seriously though, tonight I just go done with running down 3 dead-end workflow patterns with Revit. All for a 12" concrete foundation wall with a 4" x 12" brick reveal for the brick veneer coming from the wall above. the solution didn't work out like one would think.

    Never had to do that with ADT (Ah...  the slogan "Draw It Once"), or was that ACA, I don't remember anymore....

    "Screw the lawyers, hang the salesmen"  Not Shakespeare....



    -------------------------------------------
    Rudolph Beuc AIA
    Architect
    R. Beuc Architects
    Saint Louis MO
    -------------------------------------------








  • 18.  RE:How often do you really benefit from upgrading Autodesk.....

    Posted 04-16-2014 12:24 PM
    What if AIA developed an open source software that members could use, without all the glitchy bells and whistles that you cannot use with previous versions.

    It would be another reason for non-members to sign-up.

    80,000 members x $4,000 per software = $320,000,000.00 is a minimum amount that we are giving to ADSK for them to dictate how we work.

    just saying...



    -------------------------------------------
    David Ways AIA
    AIA NCARB LEED-AP
    Arcticstar Design, Inc.
    Bradenton FL
    -------------------------------------------








  • 19.  RE:How often do you really benefit from upgrading Autodesk.....

    Posted 04-17-2014 08:29 PM
    You're joking, right?

    -------------------------------------------
    Charles Graham AIA
    Architect
    O'Neal, Inc.
    Greenville SC
    -------------------------------------------








  • 20.  RE:How often do you really benefit from upgrading Autodesk.....

    Posted 04-17-2014 09:13 AM
    Wow, this is like deja vu from 10 years ago.

    I now live in Israel but in the past I was heavily involved in the AIA at city, state and national levels. 10 years ago, while serving on the AIANYS board of directors this question of autodesk milking the profession was raised, informally of course, by several board members during after meeting dinner. This was at the introduction of their "subscription" model.

    This same subject came up again at the conference....again, firm principals and IT specialists were beginning to get the big picture: Autodesk is leaning hard on its customer base to maximize profit.

    Let's not be fooled here, Autodesk is a business. One that spent many years becoming the defacto tool of the industry. But, as a consequence they can now dictate and dominate their "customers". With the introduction of the "subscription" model they now make it almost impossible, for all but the tech savvy, to buy a legal non-subscription version (no bells or whistles) and upgrade at a later date.

    The Solution (for me at least):

    As Carlos Blum stated before, is to buy a Mac and start using Vectorworks, ArchiCAD, Microstation or another of the more than competent CAD/BIM platforms out there. I'm not here to shill for any particular CAD/BIM solution, but I have experience with Vectorworks and Microstation, both of which are more than capable solutions.

    The challenge that AIA faces, and has always faced, is putting words to action and utilizing their incredible numbers.
    The problem of the software vendors is that they are sometimes short sighted or lack the vision to see the long term impact of the following:
    One solution would be to engage in a discussion with them about providing free training to at least two or three team leaders per firm. These "team leaders" would then act as mentors or support for other firm members who are switching to the new platform. Once the optimized strategy is defined it can be rolled out across the AIA or even the industry. The problem is that vendors tend to just think of that initial sale and rely on localized sub-contractors to do training. They need to eat the initial training costs in order to disrupt Autodesk's iron grip on the industry.

    None of this is impossible. Nor is it illegal. Just takes action, and not another round of committee talks.

    I have always valued the time and energy I spent in the AIA and I have always fought for the organization to "add value" to its membership. This would be a HUGE value-add.....no?

    Good luck.

    -------------------------------------------
    Ryan Clarke
    Brooklyn NY
    -------------------------------------------








  • 21.  RE:How often do you really benefit from upgrading Autodesk.....

    Posted 04-19-2014 09:08 AM

    Good discussion here.  When you work in a big firm, you don't think lot about the true value of the software you use every day and the costs involved with keeping it current.  After starting my own firm last summer, it was a big shock to pay for just one suite from Autodesk.  I chalked it up to the cost of doing business/startup costs.  The suite seems like a deal, but then you realize how much more you are paying in subscription each year and it hurts for a small shop.

    Then the feature list was leaked or came out early for Revit 2015.  The top of the list was sketchy lines.  Read that again:  Sketchy Lines.  I was convinced it was an April fools joke.  When this piece of software is hands down the biggest purchase during my first year of doing business, this "upgrade" is a slap in the face.

    I wrote a long letter to Autodesk expressing my extreme displeasure of getting such an incredibly small number of improvements for such an expensive service subscription.  We have been waiting for a decade for new site tools, there are still major problems with schematic modeling and design options.

    None of these have been addressed in an aggressive way or even committed to during feedback sessions.  If you own a massive percentage of the market, why does the roadmap need to be a black hole?  If there isn't really any serious competition, then why not provide some transparency?  At least then we have some indication of what resources Autodesk will be providing to tackle they say are big challenges to rewriting big chunks of Revit.

    There are some areas of impressive progress - cloud rendering has been immensely valuable to me in that you can send a rendering off and keep working while it renders in the cloud in a half hour.  This would typically lock up a local machine for easily three or four times as long.  But, that doesn't make up for the fact that the core functions of Revit haven't been dramatically improved on for entirely too long.

    It really forces me to take a step back and ask:  Is the cost of this really equal to the value it provides our profession?  For those of us that have been using BIM for over a decade, is it assisting us moving forward at a rate other design and manufacturing industries is, or is it nearly bankrupting us and holding us back?



    -------------------------------------------
    Angelo Marasco AIA
    Architect/Owner
    Cadence Design Studio
    Denver CO
    -------------------------------------------








  • 22.  RE:How often do you really benefit from upgrading Autodesk.....

    Posted 04-21-2014 05:57 PM
    I agree whole heartedly with the pain felt by others expressed here.  The Autodesk fees are WAY out of scope for what you actually get.  The real reason is that you cannot custom your package to what your firm actually uses without paying for the whole shebang!!  I have had this discussion in depth with numerous peers over the last couple of years.  Every firm uses different tools in the package, but you either pay through the nose for the whole package or pay through the nose and ears for the "a la carte" items that you do actually use.  I think there is something like 10-12 or more software packages in the design suite and we use 2.  That seems to be the common factor in most firms.  if we pay the "a la carte" price for the 2 it is more expensive than the whole???????

    Try having a conversation with Autodesk about this.  We have tried several times and all you get is a lot of defensive argument as opposed to a simple "what would you like us to provide you as the customer at a fair price?"

    The amazing thing is that the package completely misses the real valuable design tool and that is a quick sketch tool that architects and designers can use on the front end that is artistic and intuitive.  Thousands and Thousands of dollars of software that does not come even CLOSE to Google Sketchup for free?  Yes, that is exactly right.  FREE.  and it moves the project from concept to a final contract to put meat on our tables and the expensive software can't even come close to that outcome yet.  AND by the way you can bring Revit and dwg files into Sketchup.

    Our software retailer is Great, but the corporate Autodesk just does not listen AT ALL to what we really need and continues to develop expensive tools that a very few users actually use.  They sure are cool though.
    -------------------------------------------
    David Cameron AIA
    Principal Architect
    Cameron Aslaksen Architects, LLC
    Reedsburg WI
    -------------------------------------------








  • 23.  RE:How often do you really benefit from upgrading Autodesk.....

    Posted 04-22-2014 05:44 PM
    That's exactly the issue I have with the Adobe Creative Cloud subscription. I had the Design & Web Premium version of the Creative Suite. I used Photoshop, Illustrator, InDesign, Dreamweaver, and Acrobat. With Creative Cloud you now get everything! Yeah! Great!

    Except that I'll still only use Photoshop, Illustrator, InDesign, Dreamweaver, and Acrobat. I'm not going to use the video stuff. I'm not using AfterEffects. I'm not going to use the online collaboration stuff (I'm doing all such work myself). I'm not going to use their cloud storage...

    So, if I upgraded every version I used to pay about $450 to upgrade - and would usually stretch that out to about a year and a half or more. Now I have to pay $600 a year for Creative Cloud.

    BUT, I now get the full Master Collection - they tell me! You're actually saving money over what you would have paid if you were upgrading the Master Collection every version! Back to the discussion that I will not be using any of the "new" features I am getting - I have no use for them in my workflow. And, as you state about AutoCAD, for the price of two individual programs you can pretty much get the whole collection.

    Further, I'm still using my copy of CS6. If you let your subscription to Creative Cloud lapse, you no longer have any use of any of the programs. Can't edit the website you created in Dreamweaver. Cannot put out a new installment of the newsletter you created in InDesign. Can't update the logo that you created in Illustrator... You have no way to access the content that YOU created.

    By the way, Trimble bought SketchUp from Google two years ago - April 2012. They've made some pretty significant updates in SU2013 and SU2014. There is still a free version, but the Pro version has really added a lot of functionality through Layout. Since we've been talking about AutoCAD, sort of think of SketchUp as "model space" and Layout as "paper space" and you've got the idea. And SU2014 has added the Classifier, which uses IFC data and can export to .ifc format.

    I expect Trimble to give AutoCAD a run for their money in coming years.

    -------------------------------------------
    Thomas Bank AIA
    Principal Architect
    Simply Stated Architecture, P.C.
    Lemoyne PA
    -------------------------------------------








  • 24.  RE:How often do you really benefit from upgrading Autodesk.....

    Posted 04-24-2014 08:21 AM
    A word of warning if you try to just keep one license active. We use AutoCad Architecture and have one seat on maintenance. I loaded the 2014 version and thought it would be compatible with our earlier seats by setting the "save as" file type for compatibility. Big mistake. Every file we saved in '14 the AEC objects were updated and couldn't be saved back--only proxy graphics were displayed. Luckily we keep good backups and we restored the earlier versions. So be careful with having only one upgraded seat; you can easily contaminate and strand yourself.

    I'm think I'm about to unhook the engine from the train and let it roll on into the future. I'm not sure AutoCAD Architecture is going to evolve beyond what it is now, given Revit competition. In general I think the last AutoCAD upgrade I was happy about was layer transparency and 8-bit color.


    -------------------------------------------
    Blake Helms Assoc. AIA
    Sr. Designer
    HiFive Design Group, Inc.
    Mason OH
    -------------------------------------------








  • 25.  RE:How often do you really benefit from upgrading Autodesk.....

    Posted 04-24-2014 09:35 AM
    I was disappointed when Trimble took away the ability to load AutoCAD plans into the free version of Sketchup.

    -------------------------------------------
    Frank Marshall
    EI Associates
    Harrisburg PA
    -------------------------------------------








  • 26.  RE:How often do you really benefit from upgrading Autodesk.....

    Posted 04-25-2014 10:22 PM
    DWG import in the free version was removed in V7 - by Google. ;)

    -------------------------------------------
    Thomas Bank AIA
    Principal Architect
    Simply Stated Architecture, P.C.
    Lemoyne PA
    -------------------------------------------








  • 27.  RE:How often do you really benefit from upgrading Autodesk.....

    Posted 04-28-2014 07:02 PM

    The input from DWG was reintroduced in V8. But when it was taken away in V7, I kept V6 for that sole reason.
    -------------------------------------------
    Charles Graham AIA
    Architect
    O'Neal, Inc.
    Greenville SC
    -------------------------------------------








  • 28.  RE:How often do you really benefit from upgrading Autodesk.....

    Posted 04-22-2014 06:19 PM

    The AUTODESK conundrum.

    From a one horse firm, I will throw in my 2 cents worth. After starting life in the early CAD years with VersaCAD (Which I liked), the consulting engineers that I worked with got on the CADwagon, and most of them opted for AutoCAD. Thus my own transmogrification to their platform. I never liked it as much as VersaCAD, but felt compelled to stick with the big dogs due to their success in dominating the market.

    My current scheme is AutoCAD LT 2007 and SketchUp. Right now it's not broken, but when the time comes, I will find one of the more reasonably priced CAD alternatives. I doubt that I will live long enough to see a well-oiled BIM package - that requires such an enormous amount of programmatic coordination and complexity.

    So what about the AIA stepping up to the plate with the commissioning of an independent survey of available CAD (and BIM) platforms with comparisons in function, complexity, price, tutorial availability/effectiveness, OS compatibility, etc.? Guess I'm a dreamer.



    -------------------------------------------
    Steven Cox AIA
    President
    Cox Architecture
    Mccomb MS
    -------------------------------------------








  • 29.  RE:How often do you really benefit from upgrading Autodesk.....

    Posted 04-23-2014 09:39 PM
    Steven,

    Like you, I was also curious about all the available CAD and BIM packages out there. I did some research and created a graphic flowchart to help people select the right software based on various criteria. You can find it on my blog at http://archsmarter.com/which-architectural-software. Though it's not an exhaustive guide, it does show the range of available options.

    -------------------------------------------
    Michael Kilkelly AIA
    Principal
    Space Command
    Middletown CT
    -------------------------------------------








  • 30.  RE:How often do you really benefit from upgrading Autodesk.....

    Posted 04-25-2014 08:55 AM
    @Steven: The AIA LFRT did commission a study 5 years ago. You can find it at: http://www.aecbytes.com/report/2010/BIM_Evaluation_Study.html The challenge is that the committee allowed the author to recoup some costs by selling it. I was surprised that the vendors who scored well in the report did not work out a deal with the author to make it completely free to the public....it could have changed the entire landscape of software use. ------------------------------------------- Shawn Foster Black & Veatch Olathe KS -------------------------------------------


  • 31.  RE:How often do you really benefit from upgrading Autodesk.....

    Posted 04-28-2014 05:49 PM
    Wow. That report is as expensive as the AutoCAD software. And its almost 5 years old. This report should be free to all AIA members. Didn't we already pay for it with our dues?

    -------------------------------------------
    Stephen G. Mitchell,  AIA, LEED AP BD+C
    Senior Project Manager
    GRCH Architecture PC
    Islandia NY
    -------------------------------------------








  • 32.  RE:How often do you really benefit from upgrading Autodesk.....

    Posted 04-29-2014 06:52 PM
    The report was commissioned, but I suspect not fully paid for, by the AIA Large Firm Roundtable. That, together with the year of research it took to produce, may explain the high price.  However, since the report is now several (but not five) years old (the study ended in June 2010; the report was presumably published sometime later), I've e-mailed the publisher, AECBytes.com, suggesting that perhaps it's time to lower the price by an order of magnitude.  Additionally, I'm fairly certain that charging different customers different prices for the same publication based on the size of the customer is not legal. 

    -------------------------------------------
    Michael Tardif Assoc. AIA, CSI, Hon. SDA, LEED AP
    Senior Partner
    Building Life Cycle Information Group - BLCI Group, LLC
    Kensington MD
    -------------------------------------------








  • 33.  RE:How often do you really benefit from upgrading Autodesk.....

    Posted 04-30-2014 06:15 PM
    Michael:  correct, the report itself is less than 5 years...the research started in 2009.    Please keep us informed on Lachmi's response.

    Steven: I wish I could talk about it, but it was an agreement in the report that we could not distribute it outside of the firm.  I'm not sure if I could publish or talk about the findings...in passing, of course. :)


    -------------------------------------------
    Shawn Foster
    Black and Veatch
    Olathe KS
    -------------------------------------------








  • 34.  RE:How often do you really benefit from upgrading Autodesk.....

    Posted 04-28-2014 10:39 PM
    Wow! The price of that report was on the order of magnitude of a seat of software! I can't imagine any sole practitioner choosing to pay the $1,500.00 for the privilege of reading it's contents. The Large Firm RoundTable should have shared it with the SPF on second pricing scale. Now, being 5 years old, I can't see even the largest of firms spending money on it.
    -------------------------------------------
    Haden Smith
    Haden D. Smith AIA Architect, LLC
    St. Louis MO
    -------------------------------------------





  • 35.  RE:How often do you really benefit from upgrading Autodesk.....

    Posted 04-29-2014 08:56 AM

    Since we as members of the AIA paid for the study, why did the AIA not work out a deal to make it free to all members. And why not do it now????
    -------------------------------------------
    Michael Rowell AIA
    McCulloch England Associates Architects
    Charlotte NC
    -------------------------------------------








  • 36.  RE:How often do you really benefit from upgrading Autodesk.....

    Posted 04-30-2014 05:47 PM
    I find it difficult to justify paying even the minimum $1,499.00 for this study, as well intentioned it may be.  Alternatively, you might consider the web site and discussion forum at BIMForum. https://bimforum.org/. Though not specific to this discussion, the BIMForum's mission is to facilitate and accelerate the adoption of building information modeling (BIM) in the AEC industry.  An opportunity for broader relevency might further expand the issue and discussion concerned by those in this KN.
    -------------------------------------------
    Sonny Vinberg, AIA
    Alaska Native Tribal Health Consortium (ANTHC)
    Anchorage, Alaska
    -------------------------------------------







  • 37.  RE:How often do you really benefit from upgrading Autodesk.....

    Posted 05-01-2014 10:48 AM
    @MichaelR:  as @MichaelT indicated, the report was commissioned and paid for through the firms of the LFRT.  Dues from the AIA were not used.

    -------------------------------------------
    Shawn Foster
    Black & Veatch
    Olathe KS
    -------------------------------------------








  • 38.  RE:How often do you really benefit from upgrading Autodesk.....

    Posted 05-04-2014 12:35 PM
    What does it mean that the AIA "commissioned" this report?  Sounds like they used some of their funds to get it published.  Are we to believe this is a discounted price due to the AIA's participation?  Disappointing indeed!

    -------------------------------------------
    James Edson AIA
    Lempka Edson Architects, LLC
    Lenexa KS
    -------------------------------------------








  • 39.  RE:How often do you really benefit from upgrading Autodesk.....

    Posted 05-05-2014 05:14 PM
    @James:  the CEO's of the AIA LFRT commissioned the report, but (to my recollection) they kicked in an additional amount separate from their LFRT dues or standard firm AIA dues to fund the report.





  • 40.  RE:How often do you really benefit from upgrading Autodesk.....

    Posted 04-29-2014 12:41 PM
    Thank you for that information, Shawn. How nice that it will only cost me $1,500 (for small firms 1 -10 employees). Sort of negates the value of the study since AIA members must purchase it for such a steep price.

    Disappointing.

    -------------------------------------------
    Steven Cox AIA
    President
    Cox Architecture
    Mccomb MS
    -------------------------------------------








  • 41.  RE:How often do you really benefit from upgrading Autodesk.....

    Posted 04-29-2014 12:44 PM
    I am curious about how the different software companies/products scored, but don't agree with paying $1500 as a small firm to access the report.  Who is going to pay that much?  Wouldn't the software companies have agreed to share the costs, since they are the ones that stand to benefit from it through increased subscriptions?  If each company believes that their product is the best, they would look at this as great advertising and be willing to pay their share of the cost.

    -------------------------------------------
    Gregory Nagel AIA
    Principal Architect
    Nagel Architects
    Elm Grove WI
    -------------------------------------------








  • 42.  RE:How often do you really benefit from upgrading Autodesk.....

    Posted 04-22-2014 06:39 PM
    Not so fast.  Sketchup is no longer owned by Google, is no longer free, and comes with it's own annual subscription fees. 

    -------------------------------------------
    Kevin Miller AIA
    GSBS Architects
    Salt Lake City UT
    -------------------------------------------








  • 43.  RE:How often do you really benefit from upgrading Autodesk.....

    Posted 04-23-2014 06:10 PM
    SketchUp is owned by Trimble, still offers the Free and Pro versions (same as before), and although there is an annual "subscription" fee for support for the Pro version ($95 a year single seat & $150 network - which is included in the purchase or upgrade cost) you still have a perpetual license for the software itself.

    -------------------------------------------
    Thomas Bank AIA
    Principal Architect
    Simply Stated Architecture, P.C.
    Lemoyne PA
    -------------------------------------------








  • 44.  RE:How often do you really benefit from upgrading Autodesk.....

    Posted 04-22-2014 07:07 PM
    One other way that Autodesk has locked us in is marketing to large clients.  Some of the agreements for large institutions have changed to require the drawings be done in AutoCAD or Revit.  They used to just require that the record drawings be given them as .dwg files compatible with AutoCAD.  Reason given is that they have been told that non-AutoCAD created .dwg files do not work properly with their AutoCAD software.  That software typically was several versions old (did not have money for training) so you were always saving backwards.

    -------------------------------------------
    Robert Carlson AIA
    Principal
    Carlson Design Team PC
    Iowa City IA
    -------------------------------------------








  • 45.  RE:How often do you really benefit from upgrading Autodesk.....

    Posted 04-23-2014 12:27 AM
    Lots of people complain about autodesk and their products, but then it always sounds like moving away from their products is risky.  Is this true?  Will consultants and contractors really not work with you if you don't use autodesk products?  Do clients really demand authentic AutoCAD or Revit files only by contract?

    -------------------------------------------
    [J.][Manganelli]
    -------------------------------------------








  • 46.  RE:How often do you really benefit from upgrading Autodesk.....

    Posted 04-24-2014 08:21 PM

    I was an Autodesk pusher man. I reformed many years ago because how helpless and depended these users became with computers. The technology I taught and was provided free in the schools of design that left graduates depended on computers and Autodesk. As I moved up financially the powerless users resented that I was still pushing that product. I still use occasionally and will not advise anyone on the CADD merits like the taste of eraser and ink while ferverishly applying and removing from mylar. I keep my Autodesk yearly club membership, sometimes called subscription/conscription, up to date because the .dwg script file extension is tradeable on the open market. Autodesk, like aging, gets better with time. Fortunately I saved myself in time and can remember the taste of a real apple, not a computer.

    -------------------------------------------
    Steven Oberbroeckling AIA
    Principal
    Oberbroeckling & Associates P.C.
    Des Moines IA
    -------------------------------------------








  • 47.  RE:How often do you really benefit from upgrading Autodesk.....

    Posted 04-23-2014 07:14 AM
    David and all,

    If you want a responsive software company, I would highly recommend Graphisoft, makers of ArchiCad.  I have had it since v8 and am now on v17 and find it a fantastic improvement over Revit and AutoDesk.  

    I have a small glitch going on with my version.  I purchased an add-on and it might be effecting the operation of a couple of tools.  I informed my reseller who in turn informed Graphisoft and I got a call from Boston (I'm in Florida) from a Graphisoft employee within 12 hours.  We went through several diagnostic tests and determined that there might be something in the add-on that is hindering the tools.  I informed the add-on producer, who while on vacation sent me an email reply within an hour.  He will anlayze the file and try to isolate the issue.  Has anyone ever gotten that kind of response from AutoDesk.

    I have a long history with Revit.  I was one of 20 architects from around the country who Revit used as beta testers in the early days (late 1980's).  We met via conference call once or twice a month to discuss issues and what needed to be done to improve the software.  AutoDesk buys them out when they hear the footsteps and the rest, as they say, is history.

    I tried to teach myself the AutoDesk Revit package without aid from videos or online tutorials.  I could not figure out where to begin. That's how much different the program is from when we were developing it.  

    I am no rookie with CAD software.  The large firms I was employed by from the 1980's to 1995 used eight different software packages.  I became very proficient using them all.  Strangely, at the time none of them used AutoCad.  In fact I have never had to use AutoCad in any office in which I worked or ran.  I took an Autocad class at a local college.  The instructor began the class by stating that if it were up to him,"...Autocad would not be the first software I would recommend to anyone to learn how to draw with in CAD."  That said it all.

    If you are committed to 2D work only, try DataCad (about $1500 for a new license, upgrades $495).  It can produce beautiful drawings and you don;'t have to create bloclks for most standard elements.  If you want parametric, smart 3D software try Archicad or Vectorworks.  All are owned and run by architects.  They create software the way we think and work. You can be working relatively quickly (2 weks or less) with DataCad.  ArchiCad and Vectorworks do have learning curves, but with a little effort you can be up in running fairly quickly.

    Good luck to all!

    -------------------------------------------
    Greg Burke, AIA
    President
    Gregory John Burke | ARCHITECT, PA
    Vero Beach, Florida
    -------------------------------------------