Small Project Design

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BIM for Small Firms & Projects

  • 1.  BIM for Small Firms & Projects

    Posted 07-09-2012 08:39 AM
    This message has been cross posted to the following Discussion Forums: Small Project Practitioners and Small Firm Round Table .
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    Here are a couple good articles on the application of BIM for small firms and projects: 

    http://bit.ly/OLm6U4
    http://bit.ly/O90dIu

    shared via TAP KC by Brian Skripac Assoc. AIA

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    Ann Harris
    The American Institute of Architects
    Washington DC
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  • 2.  RE:BIM for Small Firms & Projects

    Posted 07-10-2012 10:17 AM
    Our experience has been that BIM drawings do not do a good job of going from model to construction details.  Maybe if you are a design/build firm and your construction details do not have to be accurate or fully detailed, then BIM is okay.  But if you are preparing drawings for a competitive bid market that will scrutinize every detail and note, then traditional 2D drawings are the best method.  I have even had BIM experts tell us during training sessions that many firms using BIM often draw over or add to the BIM details with 2D lines in order to present clear information in the details.  If that is the case, why use BIM for anything other than schematic and 3D representation?

    I don't want to surprise anybody out there, but there is an art to drawing good details.  Representation is more than having a 3D model that "knows" what its walls are made of all of. I would dare to say that we - the architectural profession - have been oversold on BIM.

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    Robert Smith, AIA
    Architect
    Talley & Smith Architecture, Inc.
    Shelby NC
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  • 3.  RE:BIM for Small Firms & Projects

    Posted 07-11-2012 04:40 AM
    I've been accused of being a BIM expert and I can tell you from the perspective of an ArchiCAD user (since 1997) that the tool wasn't really designed for using the 3D model to create all the elements found in a detail drawing. The BIM model is very precise, yet a detail should be fudged a little so you can graphically see the flashing, drip edge, waterproofing, etc all fighting for the same 3/16" of space while your various line weights represent the different elements to make them clear. 

    I personally use the tools so that I can see every "skin" in the wall system. I can see the drywall, studs, sheathing airspace, and masonry veneer. At 1/4":1'-0" the drywall and sheathing lines bleed together and create one heavy line on each side of the stud. At 1":1'-0" I can see these elements clearly and I "clip" the portions of my section that I want to detail and use the model information to begin my detail. All the basic stuff is there, all I have to do is add more detail. The details are essentially exploded 3D info that is now just 2D.

    Most people really miss the point of using a 3D model. All my clients see during Schematic/DD are floor plans and 3D images. I never show my clients (commercial or residential) any 2D elevations, sections, or details until I give them the final construction documents. All of these 2D construction drawings that are generated from the 3D model tend to need some embellishment, like dimensions, notes, masks, and line weight enhancements. If you embellish these drawings at the beginning of Schematic Design, you're going to be changing the 3D model AND the 2D embellishments through the rest of the process. That's double the work. Clients don't understand flat 2D elevations/ sections, but they do understand 3D images. They like to see how the design looks as you turn the corner. Why show them the stuff they can't really understand anyway? I've found that clients sign off much quicker when they understand what they're looking at and the only surprise my clients get after a building is built is that it looks just like the 3D model. The surprise is no surprise.

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    Eric Rawlings AIA
    Owner
    Rawlings Design, Inc.
    Decatur GA
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  • 4.  RE:BIM for Small Firms & Projects

    Posted 07-12-2012 12:24 PM
    It seems to me that what many people in the small project world call BIM, is mainly integrating 3D tools into the architectural process.  It is usually not Building Information Modeling in the sense used on larger projects or facilities management.

    I appreciate the value of 3d tools.  I've used Vectoroworks (then Minicad) since 1989, when in version 3 the 3D capability was little more than extruding a rectangle.  For years and many versions users clamored for 3D improvements and over the years considerable 3D capability was added.  You might call it a poor man's Revit.

    I have also used Formz for modeling over the last 15 years or so.  It is so beautiful to work with.

    One commenter noted the inefficiency of using something like Revit on the historical projects she works on.  I think as well that project type is a factor in the choice of the tool used.

    My work falls across many types (residential, commercial, industrial, historic, accessibility, new, rehab) but all tend to fall into one of two classes:  design and technical.  The design projects are always technical, but the technical projects, while having design elements, would not be noticed for their design.

    The technical projects are 99% 2D with vectorworks and imported imagery.  It is a very accurate and efficient tool for those jobs.

    For design projects I use both Vectorworks and Formz.  I prefer not starting clients off with 3D imagery because I want to get the right plan relationships first and the 3D imagery has too much sensory information for the needed focus.  These early discussion are about how something will work and be organized.  That stage is very collaborative and it is where I get the first fundamental buy in of the client.

    But once I'm confident of the initial project organization for a design project, I take the information into 3D.  With all the communicative benefits others have mentioned.  At some point, however, as the project moves beyond client acceptance of the basic design, I abandon model fidelity and transition the drawings back to 2D.  I may use some of the imagery (elevations often) or not.

    At this later stage my primary concern is describing the project in a clear and detailed way so that what we have spent so much time designing and refining, is the same matter that the contractor builds.  My own preferred tool is very explicit drawings and I have found that 2D is superior and bound up with fewer compromises than 3D for that aim.

    Three cheers for 3D.

    All the best,
    Donad

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    Donald Wardlaw AIA
    More Than Construction, Inc.
    Oakland CA
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  • 5.  RE:BIM for Small Firms & Projects

    Posted 07-13-2012 08:08 AM

    This is very well said. The value of integrating 3D into the design process does not lie in one piece od software, and no one piece of software can possibly meet the requirements of a varied design process. I wish the AIA would stop being the promoter for the big software companies, and start bringing information on blended workflows to its members (us).
    Thanks,
    Ray Strang
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    Raymond Strang AIA
    Raymond Strang & Associates, AIA
    Stevensville MD
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  • 6.  RE:BIM for Small Firms & Projects

    Posted 07-13-2012 12:04 PM
    We are at a juncture where we need to upgrade both AutoCad & Sketchup, and are looking for a tool that integrates 2D & 3D so that we aren't corrdinating two files for every project.  I am ccurious whether any small practices are using Rhino this way, for both 3D and as a primary drafting tool.
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    Scott Rappe AIA, LEED AP
    Kuklinski + Rappe Architects
    Chicago IL
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  • 7.  RE:BIM for Small Firms & Projects

    Posted 07-13-2012 12:51 PM
    I agree with Mr. Donald Wardlaw. I did new hospitals in 1984 with main frame computer. The buy-in is very important. With hospitals there are at least 3 separate and distinct approvals that we had signatures on the 2D drawings: Doctors, Nurses, and Administration. Sometimes more if it is a University or Government hospital.

    2D is best for contractors. Sometimes, if there is a curve in 2 or 3 spatial directions (x,y,z) then a thumbnail 3D drawing on the 2D contract and construction drawings is helpful. Usually 2 or 3 thumbnails from 2 or 3 directions. However, if the 3D thumbnails are confusing, (only known after drawing them or imaging them) then there isn't any point on placing them on the 2D contract and construction drawings.

    The best thing about CADD 2D and 3D is not erasing ink on mylar, graphite on linen, etc. The nice thing about linen is washing the whole sheet if you are required to start over.

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    Steven Oberbroeckling AIA
    Principal
    Oberbroeckling & Associates P.C.
    Des Moines IA
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  • 8.  RE:BIM for Small Firms & Projects

    Posted 07-13-2012 08:54 PM


    BIM is a bad idea!

    Please do not use BIM or REVIT, especially if you do work in the Seattle area. I would hate to be in competition with you. Using BIM Increases productivity,   which will only decreases employment of drafters and interns. In this economy, we need to make work, even if it is archaic and tedious.    It also shows our clients what their projects will really look like, which is not good. We really want a mystery in our projects until they are finally built.  Clients and contractors will lose trust in us if our projects are constructed in virtual reality and they really know what they are getting and building.  We also do not need to catch all the mistakes in our drawings. That is why we have errors and omission insurance and attorneys to protect us. Attorneys need work too!  Reducing claims will also make less work for the insurance agents.  Managing construction is easier too, but would only decrease hours needed by the construction managers, again reducing employment.  As you know BIM software is extremely expensive.  So do me a favor, excuse me, us a favor , and save your money !  BIM is a BAD idea!

    Have a good weekend!  :)

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    David Fisher AIA
    Principal
    Fisher Architects
    Gig Harbor WA
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  • 9.  David Fisher - No help to anybody.

    Posted 07-16-2012 11:17 AM

    Dear David Fisher,

    I understand your point.  The BIM talking points you state are exactly why we bought the software and invested in multiple training sessions.  But your statements aren't very useful.  Anybody can spout off the copy text from a REVIT ad.  (And if you need BIM to show your clients what their project really looks like, your representation skills were lacking anyway. I apologize for the ugly tone of that statement, but your response tends to accuse many of us of being idiots for not embracing the all wonderful BIM.)

    Our expereince has been that the limitations of the software prevent us from preparing quality construction documents.  We do use REVIT to visualize the project and communicate with the Owner.  Yet, for us, REVIT has not created any sort of time savings, not improved constructibility, nor helped us catch any mistakes.

    Dear Rudolph Beuc,

    Thanks for your examples.  I believe REVIT creates good elevations and 1/4" sections.  But for our purposes, it doesn't do a good job on larger scale details and sections.  It can create them, but they lack the clarity that can come with some finess in a good detail.

    Thanks.

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    Robert Smith AIA
    Architect
    Talley & Smith Architecture, Inc.
    Shelby NC
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  • 10.  RE:David Fisher - No help to anybody.

    Posted 07-17-2012 09:00 AM
    I agree with Mr. Smith that we should be discussing the merits of using the program and not acting simply as a commercial for one software or another. My experience with Revit has been quite positive. I have a very small firm (1-3 architects). Our work runs the gambit from new construction to remodel, residential, light commercial and industrial. I began using the software when it was just a small independant company started by a couple software engineers from Pro-E. The learning curve is not only steep but long. After all these years we are still learning new little tricks, and Autodesk's involvement has only allowed for better coordination with traditional CAD.

    Here are some of the main advantages that we have realized with the software:

    - far less coordination required with the CD's (no more hunting down if that section or detail references the proper sheet)
    - graphical uniformity throughout the entire design and documentation process (no wasted time with layers, layer standards, layer management software, etc)
    - massing design aid (I have heard a lot of complaints about using this software on residential projects, but we really enjoy doing our custom and spec home projects, and often use the full 3D advantages at the earliest stages of the project. No more projected roofs that don't exist in the three dimensional world that we live in.)
    - quick and clean visualization (We have worked on feasibilty studies for some much larger projects, because we could quickly communicate ideas to our clients. We can't afford to have a dedicated sketchup person on staff. Hand sketching is great and can better capture the essence of a project, but we have found the Revit visualizations give a greater level of confidence that a project is actually feasible.
    - better and better families (It is still a struggle sometime to find good families, but a lot of BPM's are working to create additional content. This is an easy win-win if you would spec the BPM product in the first place)
    - better detailing (There have been a lot of comments about this. We use Revit to create the outline of the sections and details, and then use detail components and line work to draft over them. It is not redundant as some people suggest. Rather it allows us to cut the 'difficult' section and provide good information, as opposed to providing the 'easy' typical section. Revit is still many years away from automatically providing quality details.)
    - ownership of building information (We are able to generate additional business by providing building surveying that eventually leads to tenant build-out work)

    These are just a few advantages. We made the commitment to go 100% Revit in 2009. This has worked out very well for us. Despite the naysayers, drafting in Revit is not a chore. It takes experience, just like AutoCAD did way back in the day when we all started using it. Revit is far from perfect. For example, the civil/site engineering is a disaster.

    One last thought - our investment in this software is just that, an investment. I don't want to learn and use a software (or collection of softwares) that may not be supported for the AEC industry in the future.

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    Thomas Budzik AIA
    Thomas Budzik Architecture, PC
    Prospect Hts IL
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  • 11.  RE:David Fisher - No help to anybody.

    Posted 07-17-2012 09:36 AM
    The BIM model, when properly executed, provides the context for construction documentation. No, it does not dimension itself nor does it add its own notes and tags and, thank God, It allows me the freedom to detail as I see fit. For small scale plans sections and elevations, all I need to do is add is any annotation deemed necessary. By using material tags and keynoting in the annotation, process, Revit will automatically repeat the same annotation in other views when I direct it to. By using the pick entire wall method, I can dimension a floor plan in minutes rather than hours. In larger details, I find the Revit elements for beams and columns more than adequate. I do use the Revit detail components to detail just how I want things to go together and, since God is in the details, I would never want to delegate this task to the software. The BIM model provides the context for this detailing however and If, in detailing, I find I need to modify the model, it is easy to do and the changes are carried out through all views. Lastly, the BIM model automatically produces any schedules needed, that task alone saves hours and if I use manufacturer supplied component models, is extremly accurate.

    The secret to good documentation from BIM is in the proper set up of a good template for each type of project. Tell Revit, or any BIM product,  what type of documentation you need, how you want it organized and how you want the building elements to look, by level of detail.

    Thad Broom, AIA
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    Thad Broom AIA
    Architect
    Thad A. Broom AIA, P.C.
    Virginia Beach VA
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  • 12.  RE:BIM for Small Firms & Projects

    Posted 07-11-2012 08:01 AM
    The amount of 2D you should need in a set of BIM documents should be pretty small - depending on the level/quality of modeling that's done. BIM in the hands of an experienced architect can be an impressive tool! Instead of spending your time checking CD's for consistencyor directing a less experienced co-worker, you can model and make your own documents.

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    Dennis McNeal AIA
    Autodesk, Inc.
    Manchester NH
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  • 13.  RE:BIM for Small Firms & Projects

    Posted 07-11-2012 09:09 AM
    I purchased Revit from Revit in 2004.  I still miss the real Architects that Revit had for technical support (before Autodesk bought them out and ran them off) who you could call and they actually understood my situation rather than dealing with folks who really know the manual, really want to sell you lots more manuals, but never used it in the real world.  I just wanted a quick and easy way to get to 3D early in the process for client presentations.  I continued to combine Autocad standard details sheets, Autocad sites, doing the wall sections in Autocad 2D, etc. with my Revit plans, elevations, and building sections.  Today, it is just as easy to do it all in Revit (except the site which is still a joke in Revit in my opinion) and then putting it all together is much, much, more seamless.  Yes, most of the wall sections and blow up details are 2D overlays of the 3D cuts but they are in Revit so if a detail number changes on the wall section, it is automatically updated on the plans and elevations where the section mark appears.  There is a learning curve to get proficient with the Revit drafting tools, get your line weights where you want them, and they are still, in a lot of little ways, not as "user friendly" as Autocad's.  But the difference is just seconds that all add up to just a few minutes more in the production process.  My theory is that Autocad is sold to far more CADCAM detailers than Archtiects so it is really refined to support detailers not so much projects.  Revit is the opposite.  Revit is more focused on the flashy, 3D, BIMMY, side of the process and really doesn't care much that I wish I could hit space bar and repeat the last command like I can in Autocad.  So, there you have one guys experience using Revit in a four person firm, for what it is worth.

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    Darrel Odom AIA, LEED AP
    President
    Odom Peckham Architecture, Inc.
    Little Rock AR
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  • 14.  RE:BIM for Small Firms & Projects

    Posted 07-11-2012 09:24 AM
    As a sole practitioner I could not survive without the quick modeling and drawing coordination that BIM (in my cased Archicad) offers. In just a few hours I can have plans, elevations, and 3D model of an existing structure or a schematic design proposal which then can be easily developed into CD's. While it is important to decide at what point to stop modeling and start drawing, all of my plans, elevations and sections are produced directly from the model and all update with any change to the model. I do draft details, because as Robert mentioned there is an art to it and it would take too long to model properly. There is great potential in including 3D in CD's to more clearly explain to contractors how pieces of a building come together. With limited time for training I love having one program that can take me from schematics to 3D presentation to CD's and eliminates most of the drudgery of drafting.

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    Jean Terwilliger AIA
    Principal
    Jean Terwilliger, AIA, Architect
    Cornwall VT
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  • 15.  RE:BIM for Small Firms & Projects

    Posted 07-11-2012 10:21 AM
    I have to agree with other BIM users and take issue with Robert Smith's point: BIM (in our case, ArchiCad) is a great tool for producing an integrated, coordinated set of plans/sections/elevations/schedules/takeoffs/etc., along with 3D views and walkthroughs.  Details are referenced to the model but drawn 2D (and yes, there is an art to drawing the detail!).  But to discredit BIM as a tool for that reason is akin to throwing out the baby with the bathwater--we still get all the benefits of the integrated model. The "coordination exercises" of 2D days between plan/section/elevation were not the best use of our time!

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    Thomas Bassett-Dilley AIA
    Principal
    Tom Bassett-Dilley Architect, Ltd.
    Oak Park IL
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  • 16.  RE:BIM for Small Firms & Projects

    Posted 07-11-2012 10:56 AM
    I have to agree with Robert. BIM assumes the entire team has the same software and is able to input the data correctly into another person's model. Which makes, the model as with anything, only as good as the data that has been entered.

    When working on unique building types and details, especially historic existing buildings, you will not be able to use a 3D model efficiently. The details will need to be completed in 2D. Maybe if your work primarily on new buildings, you can put BIM to better use. For restoration and minor renovation of older buildings I find it useless and expensive.

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    Kathleen Starghill-Sherrill AIA
    Principal
    SP Arch, Inc.
    Pikesville MD
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  • 17.  RE:BIM for Small Firms & Projects

    Posted 07-15-2012 12:10 PM

    My experience is quite the opposite.

    Attached are some examples from a project done completely in Revit. Nothing imported from other software except an image of the survey.

    It should be said that this did happen without surmounting a huge learning curve. It comes about in stages, with making good time being one of the last things to figure out.

    Thanks,
    Rudy Beuc

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    Rudolph Beuc AIA
    Architect
    R. Beuc Architects
    Saint Louis MO
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