Housing and Community Development

 View Only

Community HTML

Mariposa 1038 (Lorcan O’Herlihy Architects)

Quick Links

Who we are

The AIA Housing and Community Development Knowledge Community (HCD) is a network of architects and allied stakeholders that promotes equity in housing, excellence in residential design, and sustainable, vibrant communities for all, through education, research, awards, and advocacy.

Expand all | Collapse all

150 buildings lost - Los Angeles Times - 9/17/14

  • 1.  150 buildings lost - Los Angeles Times - 9/17/14

    Posted 09-17-2014 05:19 PM


    -------------------------------------------
    Eugenio Aburto AIA-E
    architect
    Palm Desert CA
    -------------------------------------------
    It is interesting look than newspaper reporters are aware than concrete is a Fire Resistant material, I make the follow writing, which I want to share with my fellows architects, to have their comments about people using wood framing construction, which everybody knows: wood is flammable, but looks like they have not knowledge of other construction methods.   I fill as a professional involved in dwelling construction need to try to change their traditional mind to safer way to invest their money and keep their lives and belongings safe, and with less cost.

    Wildfire's destruction.

    This report is a very poignant comment: "almost nothing was left but the concrete foundation." If the whole house had been built with concrete, there would have been no panic, no loss of medication, clothes, money, family photographs, art and antiques.  People can stay at home safe, and firefighters can concentrate on the wildfire, without risking their lives to save structures.

    And concrete is a sustainable material.

    I invite you to look at the patent US 8,429,876 B2 to give your comments about it.
    Thanks,



  • 2.  RE: 150 buildings lost - Los Angeles Times - 9/17/14

    Posted 09-18-2014 06:58 PM
    But concrete is very hard to remodel, repair or correct. It's also expensive to build with, in the scale of residences. 

    -------------------------------------------
    Judith Wasserman AIA
    Bressack & Wasserman
    Palo Alto CA
    -------------------------------------------




  • 3.  RE: 150 buildings lost - Los Angeles Times - 9/17/14

    Posted 09-19-2014 05:38 PM
    The Concrete might resist fire.  The building would still burn and be mostly lost except for the shell because radiant heat would cause the interior to burst into flames. Doors would be another weak point. The roofing would be a weak point (perhaps the concrete fanatic would want the roof deck in concrete as well, but mechanical openings would remain.
    We did an interesting project set in an inholding in a National Forest and these concerns arose.
    And we made the walls of Rammed Earth.  But in mid stages of design we realized that the house could not be livable and be a bunker simultaneously. We studied shutters - in our case we found them prohibitive both in terms of cost and technics. They'd have to be deployed fairly rapidly (perhaps automatically).  We came quite close to putting an earthen roof (IRMA) but finally chose not to (nifty total tie-in with earthen walls for a house in a meadow to have a grassy roof).  Great heat (external) on concrete will cause it to fail anyway; that's a crapshoot. So our clients knowingly, willingly live on an edge between civilization and the natural world.

    -------------------------------------------
    Jonathan Siegel AIA
    Siegel Design Architects, LLC
    Albuquerque NM
    -------------------------------------------




  • 4.  RE: 150 buildings lost - Los Angeles Times - 9/17/14

    Posted 09-25-2014 03:09 PM


    -------------------------------------------
    Eugenio Aburto AIA
    architect
    Eugenio Aburto, AIA
    Palm Desert CA
    -------------------------------------------
    The shell don't burn, and if the interior has not flammable items, no problem.
    I as a fanatic concrete build the roof with concrete.  I use concrete T-beams pour in place for walls and roof.
    To protect the openings with low cost, I build precast CONCRETE slab and place on a inclined track, the bottom of the 4 inches slab has a plastic strip glides, hold open by a device which contracts with high temperature.

    Low cost, and the people and assets no flammable, stay.  All paper including money can be inside a strong box fireproof.

    By the way I build several houses with rammed earth, with the labor of the owners.   Material cost = $ 0.00, labor ditto.



  • 5.  RE: 150 buildings lost - Los Angeles Times - 9/17/14

    Posted 09-25-2014 03:42 PM
      |   view attached
    Regarding rammed earth construction, I like to show some, but sorry the roof is a thin CONCRETE slab  on metal rafters filled with CONCRETE, fast and low cost, the metal takes the tension stress, concrete as usual: compression.

    -------------------------------------------
    Eugenio Aburto AIA
    architect
    Eugenio Aburto, AIA
    Palm Desert CA
    -------------------------------------------


    Attachment(s)



  • 6.  RE: 150 buildings lost - Los Angeles Times - 9/17/14

    Posted 09-29-2014 02:02 AM

    On Judith's remark, all material's unit rate drops given sufficient widespread use. The current price probably reflects the vicious cycle of limited usage in the building assembly that is largely confined to columns, beams and shear walls- leading to limited availability of skilled labor in formwork rough carpentry, rebar fabricators, aggregate supply, limited demand for structural precast, thus higher prices and even more limited usage..

    On Jonathan's remark, yes the interior will be totally gutted but it will only be in the unit/ house that is on fire, period. The blaze is highly unlikely to develop into a 150 building inferno. That is the difference, which Eugenio is trying to highlight in his piece. Its non-combustibility would have given the occupant sufficient time to exit and for the fire fighter sufficient time to control the fire spread without the structure adding fuel to the burning flame. It would be interesting if someone could tabulate the loss from such fire and the consequential repercussions and drain on the economy having to repeatedly rebuild the lost properties.

    In the developing nations' low cost high density housing, it is the predominant material of choice for both structural and architectural elements- floor slab, party walls, elevator core, exit staircase, wall enclosure...The cost pressure couldn't be any greater that.

    How many more lives and buildings do we have to sacrifice before we realize one life lost is one too many or another '150 buildings burnt down' is another one too many?

    -------------------------------------------
    Geok Ser Lee Intl. Assoc. AIA, LEED AP
    Owner
    GSLA
    Irvine CA
    -------------------------------------------




  • 7.  RE: 150 buildings lost - Los Angeles Times - 9/17/14

    Posted 09-30-2014 06:04 PM
    The cost of concrete is not due to low usage. Virtually every footing, foundation, basement wall, slab-on-grade, suspended slab, parking garage, bridge, sidewalk, driveway, curb, gutter and a good portion of road surfaces in the U.S. are built with formed, reinforced, cast-in-place concrete. I'm convinced that more concrete is put in place every day than wood framing. Cast-in-place concrete costs more because every component of the building that is built with concrete has to be built twice: once using formwork and once using concrete.

    Non-combustible construction is fine, but the building's contents are virtually all combustible. Unless we're also being urged to design concrete finishes, furniture, clothes, bedding, appliances, etc. The decision about whether the risk of incurring the cost of replacing a fire-destroyed building is greater than the cost of less-combustible construction is a decision made by every home buyer. And the decision about the risk of injury and death due to fire--including the cost of reducing that risk--is made by home buyers as well. So far, a large majority of those home buyers prefer the riskier, less-costly non-concrete alternative (for many reasons previously stated in this discussion).

    In my geographic area, virtually every home has concrete walls surrounding 1/2 to 1/3 of its total area--in the basement. Those areas tend to be inhabited less and used more for storage of combustibles. When finished and inhabited, they tend to be finished with a third wall (counting the formwork and the concrete as the first and second walls) made of wood framing, insulation and gypsum board, increasing the cost and combustibility but making it habitable.

    I'll continue to design what my clients want. As soon as one of them requests a concrete home, that's what I'll design. When the culture (aka the market) begins to find concrete homes as desirable as others, we will all be asked to design more of them.

    -------------------------------------------
    Sean Catherall AIA
    Senior Project Manager
    DAVE ROBINSON ARCHITECTS
    Salt Lake City UT
    -------------------------------------------




  • 8.  RE: 150 buildings lost - Los Angeles Times - 9/17/14

    Posted 10-02-2014 08:04 PM

    Sean, you are absolutely correct to say every footing, foundation, slab on grade, parking garage, sidewalk, basement wall, curb and some roads are in concrete. I am not so sure about the rest- suspended slab, bridge, driveway, and gutter. Those are largely in the commercial world and that is precisely why one rarely hears of massive losses from fire in those structures. Those fortunate enough to have the financial resources to afford individually designed houses probably also enjoy peace of mind knowing such scenario would never befall upon them.

    Yes concrete require formwork and so is many man-made material like plastics. However that does not necessarily mean it must be dearer to produce. In precast concrete technology, there are steel molds, fiberglass molds which allow multiple casts from a single mold. Even timber mold allows multiple casting up to as many as 10 times. If that is indeed a deterrent, parking garage would have been built in timber and so are sidewalks or curb or road for that matter. It is the combination of properties, among which life safety is an important consideration, that allow it to be the material of choice in those applications.

    You are again absolutely right to say content in a house are all combustible. The point here is flame spread not whether the house on fire will get burnt down. The house, where a fire has started, will definitely be reduced to ashes. There is no doubt about it. What we are trying to do is to limit the flame spread and prevent structural collapse. If the structure is in concrete or masonry, there is virtually very little chance the flame will spread beyond the house on fire.

    On habitability of concrete shell, there are many ways to skin a cat. To make a concrete shell habitable, it could be as simple as a coat of paint or wrapped in timber veneer, wallpaper, in flame retardant grade and timber textured if you wish.

    Contrary to your statement, home buyers in general have very little say on this matter. The decision lies primarily with the developer and, to a lesser extent, the architects who are involved in the mass housing market. How many among the millionaires, who live in individually designed private homes, use timber structure? Does anyone have any statistics on that? My hunch is very few, perhaps only in their vacation homes in isolated countryside.

    In summary, it all boils down to how much do we as a profession value fellow human's life safety and how well have we learn from the past disasters. If we only pay lip service and continue to allow such burning inferno to persist year after year without nipping the cause in the bud, the status quo will remain. No questions about it.


    -------------------------------------------
    Geok Ser Lee Intl. Assoc. AIA, LEED AP
    Owner
    GSLA
    Irvine CA
    -------------------------------------------




  • 9.  RE: 150 buildings lost - Los Angeles Times - 9/17/14

    Posted 10-03-2014 08:53 PM
    I am very glad with the response to my invitation to discuss about building with concrete to have Type I dwellings to keep the people safe when fire occurs.
    What I can understand, is the idea that building with concrete is expensive, maybe yes if the use of concrete is not well think out, the way I use it is based in several years of experience, building several thousand of homes, an even a hotel.
    I start the quest with the purpose of  make hoses for the poor people, after using prefabrication and find that it is no the solution, start with the free construction material: earth. Around 50 years ago, I build more then 30 houses by rammed earth, great.  Then having access to steel formwork build one with masonry concrete, it was good.  Then did a couple with plywood formwork, with such practice I  build one model home for a smart developer, who invited several builders to put model homes, there were  big companies, to compete with 4 to 6 models, the developer condition was that the people will choose and him contract according with the demand.   I build 7,500 units in 15 months.  The people had a very good sturdy concrete house in Mexico City, were earthquakes are more than frequent, I visit the are 30 years after hoses were occupied, And they were there, with lots of changes, some with one or two stories added, but no structural problems, I felt glad to had build for some many families an affordable house, and had make the developer very much happy, because instead the sale price was low, he had big profit, per house, and I delivered 25 units a day.   We use to said than the best way to do business is to conjugate the verb: earn.   I earn, you earns, he (she) earns, we earn, they earn, all earn.  I - myself, you - the developer, he, she - the buyers, we - all of the above, They - workers, stores of materials, vendors of new furniture, vendors of decoration items, the tax office,  etc.

    The good thing of concrete is very good for massive construction, I had 25 crews doing a foundation per day, other 25 crew one house walls a day, and another 25 crew, a roof a day, a house was build on five days, we had a lot of women doing painting, cleaning, and making the construction site attractive to men workers. Plumbers and electricians work all the time were required, using prepared elements by themselves.

      
    -------------------------------------------
    Eugenio Aburto AIA
    architect
    Eugenio Aburto, AIA
    Palm Desert CA
    -------------------------------------------




  • 10.  RE: 150 buildings lost - Los Angeles Times - 9/17/14

    Posted 10-03-2014 09:13 PM
    I am very glad with the response to my invitation to discuss about building with concrete to have Type I dwellings to keep the people safe when fire occurs.
    What I can understand, is the idea that building with concrete is expensive, maybe yes if the use of concrete is not well think out, the way I use it is based in several years of experience, building several thousand of homes, an even a hotel.
    I start the quest with the purpose of  make hoses for the poor people, after using prefabrication and find that it is no the solution, start with the free construction material: earth. Around 50 years ago, I build more then 30 houses by rammed earth, great.  Then having access to steel formwork build one with masonry concrete, it was good.  Then did a couple with plywood formwork, with such practice I  build one model home for a smart developer, who invited several builders to put model homes, there were  big companies, to compete with 4 to 6 models, the developer condition was that the people will choose and him contract according with the demand.   I build 7,500 units in 15 months.  The people had a very good sturdy concrete house in Mexico City, were earthquakes are more than frequent, I visit the are 30 years after hoses were occupied, And they were there, with lots of changes, some with one or two stories added, but no structural problems, I felt glad to had build for some many families an affordable house, and had make the developer very much happy, because instead the sale price was low, he had big profit, per house, and I delivered 25 units a day.   We use to said than the best way to do business is to conjugate the verb: earn.   I earn, you earns, he (she) earns, we earn, they earn, all earn.  I - myself, you - the developer, he, she - the buyers, we - all of the above, They - workers, stores of materials, vendors of new furniture, vendors of decoration items, the tax office,  etc.

    The good thing of concrete is very good for massive construction, I had 25 crews doing a foundation per day, other 25 crew one house walls a day, and another 25 crew, a roof a day, a house was build on five days, we had a lot of women doing painting, cleaning, and making the construction site attractive to men workers. Plumbers and electricians work all the time were required, using prepared elements by themselves.

      
    -------------------------------------------
    Eugenio Aburto AIA
    architect
    Eugenio Aburto, AIA
    Palm Desert CA
    -------------------------------------------




  • 11.  RE: 150 buildings lost - Los Angeles Times - 9/17/14

    Posted 08-22-2016 06:07 AM

    In my geographic area, virtually every home has concrete walls surrounding 1/2 to 1/3 of its total area--in the basement. Those areas tend to be inhabited less and used more for storage of combustibles. When finished and inhabited, they tend to be finished with a third wall (counting the formwork and the concrete as the first and second walls) made of wood framing, insulation and gypsum board, increasing the cost and combustibility but making it habitable.

    J.Homes
    Vantage Acceptance
    Credit Card Debt Negotiation