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Practice Management Member Conversations

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  giving cad file to contractors
August 03, 2011 5:42 PMStephen Alexa...
  RE:giving cad file to contract...
August 04, 2011 7:47 AMGail Ann Gold...
  RE:giving cad file to contract...
August 04, 2011 8:47 AMKerry Hogue, AIA
  RE:giving cad file to contract...
August 04, 2011 9:07 AMRobert Schill...
  RE:giving cad file to contract...
August 04, 2011 10:09 AMDavid Clarke,...
  RE:giving cad file to contract...
August 04, 2011 10:15 AMBrian Smith, AIA
  RE:giving cad file to contract...
August 04, 2011 11:21 AMSteven Schwar...
  RE:giving cad file to contract...
August 04, 2011 11:52 AMDavid Wulff, AIA
  RE:giving cad file to contract...
August 05, 2011 8:13 AMKerry Hogue, AIA
  RE:giving cad file to contract...
August 05, 2011 9:11 AMKristine Youn...
  RE:giving cad file to contract...
August 08, 2011 12:59 AMMr. Michael D...
  RE:giving cad file to contract...
August 09, 2011 6:31 PMFrederick But...
  RE:giving cad file to contract...
August 10, 2011 8:20 AMKerry Hogue, AIA
  RE:giving cad file to contract...
August 11, 2011 10:20 AMAlan Burcope,...
  RE:giving cad file to contract...
August 13, 2011 12:09 PMFrederick But...
  RE:giving cad file to contract...
August 15, 2011 12:28 PMAlan Burcope,...
 

1.
giving cad file to contractors
From: Stephen Alexander, AIA
To: Practice Management Member Conversations
Posted: August 03, 2011 5:42 PM
Subject: giving cad file to contractors
Message:
This message has been cross posted to the following Discussion Forums: Practice Management Member Conversations and Project Delivery .
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Stephen Alexander AIA
AG Architecture
Wauwatosa WI
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We are being asked by the general contractor to provide them with our full set of drawings in CAD format to allow them to use them for building layout, as built drawings etc.

On past projects we have, for a nominal fee, given them building templates that we take our name of and make them sign a disclaimer saying the drawings may not be the final CD,s and they use them at their own risk to allow them to do shop drawings etc.

I am just a little leery of giving them the entire set in a format. they can manipulate.

Just wondering what others are doing.

Thanks for your input!
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2.
RE:giving cad file to contractors
From: Gail Ann Goldstead, AIA
To: Practice Management Member Conversations
Posted: August 04, 2011 7:47 AM
Subject: RE:giving cad file to contractors
Message:
I agree that it is NOT necessary to give an entire set of CAD files to contractors.
The last big $20M hospital addition project that I was on in 2006-2008, went like this:
  1. We sent original paper drawing plots from our in-house plotter to the GC's preferred printer along with a transmittal to the GC. Thus, we issued the entire set of paper drawings to the GC from his preferred printer.
  2. His printer also scanned the original drawings PDFs.
  3. A PDF of each drawing was then posted in the same order as the original drawing set to the GC's project web site for reference. An original complete full size stamped drawing set was also available as required by law at the GC's job site trailer.
  4. The GC issued an entire drawing set to each awarded subcontractor, (some GC's only issue partial sets).
  5. We then issued CAD files of various plan drawings directly to certain sub-contractors only upon request along with our CAD File Disclaimer Statement. Over time, the use of the architect's actual CAD files has become a normative Construction Industry modus operandi as a means to expedite the shop drawing process. Not every trade requires CAD files. Typically, it's the MEP & FP subs that scream the most.
  6. If a plan change was necessary, upon owner authorization, we then re-issued affected individual drawings as part of Change Order to the GC. He then posted a new PDF of the updated drawing on his web site; and there were not very many of such drawing re-issues.
  7. My experience on that project, (and generally has been), that the GC's built the work in accordance with the architect's plans and specs as required by code as adopted and thus by law. 
  8. At the end of the project, the GC then handed over the architect's set of stamped drawings along with various up-dated drawings to the owner "As-Built". Sometimes, I've seen "As-Builts" with hand markings of minor field modifications, but usually, when something needs to be built differently, the GC gets the architect to re-draw and re-issue the drawing, as most GC's do NOT like to get involved with drawing. In the above case, the GC also handed the owner a set of the PDFs as well.

Your comment brings up many interesting thoughts:

  1. The Adobe Acrobat program can be utilized for making all kinds of text and graphic comments and could be utilized to a certain extent by a GC to make "As-Builts" if needed.
  2. The Construction Industry is starting to move towards obtaining the architect's 3D model for  the same purpose in "design assist" to expedite and fast-track production of shop drawings and even produce a 3D "Navisworks" Model for MEP FP clash detection. But even here, they do NOT need every drawn detail. They might need "the model" and it could even be stripped of various "sheets" that include details.
  3. GCs are starting to carry computer tablets of the architect's drawings in lieu of even "nini-sets" around their job sites.
  4. In the above case, the owner also asked for the architect's CAD files which they typically then hand over to a 3rd party entity which maintains an on-going CAD file for a number reasons in the facility management of the building. One of which, is that the owner's CAD files are then given to future architects for future additions and alterations as needed. Some owners do NOT maintain third party CAD files for facility management. But rather, they go back to the original architect or engineer and for a fee, obtain CAD files of the existing building to give to other AE's for future projects. They do NOT need a CAD file of every detail drawing.

Again, I agree that giving an entire set of CAD files including details is an absurd request. Good luck.

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Gail Ann J. Goldstead AIA
Wheaton IL
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3.
RE:giving cad file to contractors
From: Kerry Hogue, AIA
To: Practice Management Member Conversations
Posted: August 04, 2011 8:47 AM
Subject: RE:giving cad file to contractors
Message:
We routinely provide digital files to contractors.  They must indemnify us first.  In today's environment, we need to rely on all team members and be collaborative.  If you throw up road blocks to coorperation, then the contractor will remember that and not work with you when there becomes an issue with your documents.  And there will always be issues with your documents.  None of them are perfect.  Remember that everyone on the project should share the same goals and objectives in order for it to be a successful project.  Collaboration, cooperation, and team attitude are essential.

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Kerry Hogue AIA
HKS, Inc.
Dallas TX
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4.
RE:giving cad file to contractors
From: Robert Schilling, AIA
To: Practice Management Member Conversations
Posted: August 04, 2011 9:07 AM
Subject: RE:giving cad file to contractors
Message:


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Robert Schilling AIA
Champlin Architecture
Cincinnati OH
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Unless it is in your contract with the client or requested for a very specific use which can be measured as increasing value to the client, there is no reason to issue. Particularly in the area of building layout in the field where existing conditions may not known and regulatory problems exist, issuing digital information is not advisable, in my opinion.




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5.
RE:giving cad file to contractors
From: David Clarke, AIA
To: Practice Management Member Conversations
Posted: August 04, 2011 10:09 AM
Subject: RE:giving cad file to contractors
Message:
Providing CAD files to contractors is a challenging issue, but should be considered case-by-case.

We routinely provide CAD files for design/build services such as fire protection documents. We sometimes provide CAD files for the contractor's purpose of creating shop drawings, but are very careful about when and to whom. Our concern, as also with our consultants, is that if the contractor is given CAD files for shop drawings, do we actually get representative shop drawings or do we get our own drawings back? When subcontractors or vendors have to produce the drawings themselves, there is a greater likelihood that they will really look at our documents to see what we are asking for. Having the CAD files may result in less attentiveness on their part and a rejection of their shop drawings, which wastes time--ours and the contractor's. We get to know the contractors and have a good idea of who can use the CAD files responsibly and who will not.

As-builts are another issue altogether. We ask the contractor to mark up a set on-site with all changes. They provide us with the marked up paper drawings and we prepare the as-builts using our CAD files or have our consultants prepare as-builts for their respective disciplines.

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David Clarke AIA, Senior Architect
Williams Design Group, Inc., Las Cruces NM
President-Elect AIA New Mexico Southern Chapter
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6.
RE:giving cad file to contractors
From: Brian Smith, AIA
To: Practice Management Member Conversations
Posted: August 04, 2011 10:15 AM
Subject: RE:giving cad file to contractors
Message:
Stephen:
Please see AIA document E201 - 2007 for an approved method that may address your needs.

In my opinion, do not charge for the electronic files.  This may be misunderstodd by the recipient to imply that they have some value that you may not have intended.  This could leave you open to some liability in the case that they are used in a manner that you may not have foreseen.

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Brian Smith AIA
M+W Group
Chicago IL
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7.
RE:giving cad file to contractors
From: Steven Schwartzman, AIA
To: Practice Management Member Conversations
Posted: August 04, 2011 11:21 AM
Subject: RE:giving cad file to contractors
Message:

On a regular basis we have been requested to provide the cadd files for the drawings to the Owner to give to the contractor.  We require the Owner to sign a Cadd release document which includes the sentence:
 
"Owner assumes full responsibility for the use of the data furnished, including the accuracy, format, completeness and content thereof.  The CAD data was prepared by .....as an internal working document and as such it may contain unintentional inaccuracies or be in part obsolete.  It is the responsibility of the user to identify and make all required revisions or corrections to this data.  The Architect will not routinely issue updates to CAD data."

An attorney will be able to add the extra language to make this complete for your project.

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Steven Schwartzman AIA
Washington DC
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8.
RE:giving cad file to contractors
From: David Wulff, AIA
To: Practice Management Member Conversations
Posted: August 04, 2011 11:52 AM
Subject: RE:giving cad file to contractors
Message:


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David Wulff AIA
AIA, LEED-AP
David H. Wulff, Architect, Inc.
Lakeland FL
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Giving the full set of CAD drawings to the contractor (or anyone for that matter) is a liability that I am not willing to assume.  I give the contractor pdf drawings and will give them background CAD drawings for their use in developing shop drawings, but that is all.  Who knows what will happen when we give out full sets of CAD drawings. The recipient could use them on other projects and we may not even know it.  Or, they could change a detail, build the project with a faulty detail, and who knows what liability that carries.  No, don't give out electronic CAD drawings to anyone. 




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9.
RE:giving cad file to contractors
From: Kerry Hogue, AIA
To: Practice Management Member Conversations
Posted: August 05, 2011 8:13 AM
Subject: RE:giving cad file to contractors
Message:
I am not sure why the resistance to providing electronic documents to a vitaul project team member.  As architects it is in our best interest to be a collaborative team member.  Providing electronic documents should not incur any increased liability.  Your legal counsel can craft an appropirate indemnity for the contractor to sign.  This in no big deal.  If firms continue to stone wall this they will come across as combative and clients will not view it favorably, as increased costs from the contractors will be incurred.  In this day of electronic media, we as architects need to be team players.  We get a lot of references from contractors and it is because they know we are team oriented and have the project's best interest at the forefront.  Provide the documents.

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Kerry Hogue AIA
HKS, Inc.
Dallas TX
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10.
RE:giving cad file to contractors
From: Kristine Young, AIA
To: Practice Management Member Conversations
Posted: August 05, 2011 9:11 AM
Subject: RE:giving cad file to contractors
Message:

I agree with Kerry, it has been my experience that collaboration is a vital key to team and project success. With proper indemnification it is common practice and ecpected in certain types of project types, especally institutional. PIM Project Informatio Managagement relies on teaming, which is being proprelled by GC's.  BIM file such as Revit contains pretty much all the information which you can easily extract into a CAD background for subcontractors use. We share files with consultants all the time and sharing with the build partner is thenext natural progression.
I do agree with Gail that you should discuss which files are really needed, to ensure both proper receipt and use
by the GC for his team, as well as saving time / money swapping bytes unnecessarily. I also like her idea that Owner will pay for As Builts! Good luck with the project.
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Kristine Young AIA
Tarpon Springs FL
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11.
RE:giving cad file to contractors
From: Mr. Michael Dern, AIA
To: Practice Management Member Conversations
Posted: August 08, 2011 12:59 AM
Subject: RE:giving cad file to contractors
Message:
I agree with Kerry and Kristine. My past work while at HKS and current work has been built from partnering relationships with Design+Build Contractors.

Once the disclaimers and contractual agreements are there, get to work through an informative collaborate process and enjoy getting the project on the site and building.


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Michael Dern AIA
Dern Architecture + Development
San Mateo CA
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12.
RE:giving cad file to contractors
From: Frederick Butters Esq., FAIA, Esq
To: Practice Management Member Conversations
Posted: August 09, 2011 6:31 PM
Subject: RE:giving cad file to contractors
Message:
I have been watching this discussion with some interest and I think it is important to clarify a few points that have been raised.

First, your work product is your work product.  You can't release it and somehow divorce yourself from it.  While I realize the notion of releasing the work product and somehow disclaiming responsibility for it is attractive, it really isn't possible.  

Second, recognize that if you do release your work product in some manipuable form, it can and likely will be manipulated.  When your details manifest themselves on other projects (and despite the fact that you may get an agreement to the effect that they won't they still may - people breach written contracts every day).

Finally, we tend to place too much reliance on indemnification.  Indeed, a contractor may agree to fully indemnify you when or if a lawsuit is filed arising out of their use or reuse of your documents - effectively a contract wherein the contractor agrees to pay the costs of defense and any judgment in the event you are successfully sued on account of their use or reuse of your documents.  That is fine, but understand it doesn't prevent the lawsuit from being filed.  Understand also that contracts are breached every day (see above).  If you are sued you can demand the contractor indemnify pursuant to the indemn indemnification agreement.  If they still exist and are capable and willing to do so, fine.  If not however, then you still have to defend the lawsuit.  You may also have a second lawsuit aimed at attempting to force the contractor to honor the indemnification agreement (presuming they are still in business - if not you are simply out of luck).

The point is simply that we rely heavily on these sorts of indemnification agreements for all sorts of things - in this context and many others.  When they work they are fine.  When they don't (which is more than just once a while) they actually cause as much or even more harm then they do good.  I have seen indemnification agreements work in many contexts and I have seen them fail in many contexts - were I to count I would say the count is about even 

The bottom line - releasing your documents in a form subject to manipulation carries risk - a risk that can't be completely disclaimed.  Indemnification is one method for managing that risk to a degree but keep that device in perspective and understand it isn't bulletproof.  While it lowers the risk, it doesn't eliminate it.  There is no way to eliminate it in a manner consistent with current law.

Indeed, this very issue is at the core of the debate over integrated practice.  True integrated practice models require the Architect to permit others to manipulate the building information database.  Unfortunately the law is reactionary.  For a time the law will force fit old legal concepts onto developing business models.  Eventually the law will change to reflect the development of those business models, but until it does there is generally a painful period of adjustment.  While I have heard integrated practice advocates suggest the law simply must change, the reality is it won't do that quickly enough to satisfy those advocates.

The point here is simply that to manage your risk you must appreciate the nature of the risk you face.  While indemnification and hold harmless agreements and disclaimers are better then nothing they still carry a degree of risk.  Knowing that and factoring it into your decision making is better than learning it later.

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Frederick Butters FAIA, Esq.
Attorney
Southfield MI
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13.
RE:giving cad file to contractors
From: Kerry Hogue, AIA
To: Practice Management Member Conversations
Posted: August 10, 2011 8:20 AM
Subject: RE:giving cad file to contractors
Message:
The problem with this too much legal objection is that the project suffers.  The risks are managable.  Our firm is as conservative and risk adverse as any out there, and we have found a way to be cooperative and team players without absorbing undue risk.  If you want to compete in this marketplace, find a way to be team players, coorperate, look out for the best interests of the client, and provide the electronic files.

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Kerry Hogue AIA
HKS, Inc.
Dallas TX
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14.
RE:giving cad file to contractors
From: Alan Burcope, AIA, MBA, LEED AP
To: Practice Management Member Conversations
Posted: August 11, 2011 10:20 AM
Subject: RE:giving cad file to contractors
Message:

If providing electronic files to contractors, or anyone for that matter, was either explicit, or implied in your agreement with the client, then you are already committed to do so.  Take whatever action is necessary and feasible to protect yourself from that risk.  However, if this action can be considered beyond the scope of services agreed to, then leverage it for additional services.  This is where architects often fail to be good business people.  Rather than seeing additional risk as a business opportunity, we run from it and hope we can escape it or shift it to the owner or others.

Quantify the risk and make an argument to the client that this risk is beyond your normal services.  Elaborate further, however, that there is a real benefit to him/her that justifies the additional cost.  Transmitting the files will reduce the construction cost, eliminates some change orders, shorten the schedule, etc.  Get the contractors to support your claims.  Then, charge the client an adequate but fair price for this additional service.  Price the service not based on what it costs you, but rather based on what value it brings the client, minus an amount that makes it an attractive purchase to the client.

If the contractor does not support your claims, then ask why he wants the files if they don't reduce his effort and therefore the cost?

This is business, and it is good business because everyone wins.

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Alan Burcope AIA, MBA, LEED AP
VP Project Development
HBE Corporation
Saint Louis MO
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15.
RE:giving cad file to contractors
From: Frederick Butters Esq., FAIA, Esq
To: Practice Management Member Conversations
Posted: August 13, 2011 12:09 PM
Subject: RE:giving cad file to contractors
Message:
I suppose one could take the view that to much legal objection causes a project to suffer.  However, in the converse, not enough causes the Architect to suffer (and I can't object to strenuously I suppose since that is what keeps me in business).  My point is simply that to manage a risk, one must understand the risk.  Risk management is predicated on the concept of reducing the overall risk.  Indemnification agreements don't work to that end - they don't reduce risk - they simply shift the consequences of that risk elsewhere (or at least that is generally what they seek to do - as I mentioned earlier their effectiveness at accomplishing that task is in many circumstances more than a little questionable). 

Simply put, one has not managed the risk by requesting an indemnification agreement.  While that step may offer some legal arguments that aren't otherwise available, the Architect still retains all of the risk - he or she simply has the legal right (at least in theory - practice may be another matter) to transfer the consequences and effects of that risk to another.  It is easy to put to much faith in those sorts of devices instead of addressing the underlying risk per se.

Mr. Burcope on the other hand suggests a sound approach.  Look at it as a marketing opportunity.  Educate the Owner and the Contractor and demonstrate 1) that your files are of value to both the Contractor and the Owner; and 2) that you ought be compensated properly for that value.  At their core every professional is an educator first, then a risk taker.  We educate clients so they can make informed choices.  In that context, we assume the risks inherent in the services we render in exchange for proper compensation.  No one would ever hire a professional who assumes no risk - because they confer no value.  However, a professional can and should be properly compensated for assuming the risk.    

Getting an indemnification agreement is fine, but simply giving up manipuable document files in exchange for one is not really appropriate risk management.  Capitalizing on the opportunity that the request to provide those files to extend education regarding the project and the service, to establish the proposition that all A/E services are of value, and to secure reasonable compensation in exchange for the service provided, is.  The better relationships that are engendered as a consequence are likewise.



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Frederick Butters FAIA, Esq.
Attorney
Southfield MI
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16.
RE:giving cad file to contractors
From: Alan Burcope, AIA, MBA, LEED AP
To: Practice Management Member Conversations
Posted: August 15, 2011 12:28 PM
Subject: RE:giving cad file to contractors
Message:

There are two important concepts in regard to the relationship between risk and value.  First, as Mr. Butters states, in order to manage risk, you must be able to quantify it.  I would like to hear some comments from others who have posted here as to what thier perception of those risks are when transfering models to contractors.  First listing them, then perhaps attempting to quantify them.  It might make for a very productive conversation.

The second concept is that of placing the risk with the party most capable of mitigating it.  This is an important concept because when properly assigned, the risk is actually reduced, and thus, the cost that can be assigned to that risk can also be reduced.  The reduction in this "risk premium" is essentially found money.  It is waste that can be eliminated from the system.  For example, if the architect were determined to be the best party to manage the risk of liability associated with the utilization of a BIM model on a project, and the use of the BIM model created a, lets say 5% reduction in project costs, then the architect would have a right to claim some adequate portion of that savings for agreeing to manage that risk.  The architect, however, would have to quantify that risk and manage it accordingly such that a reasonable profit could be made.  That is a new skill set, but also a new revenue stream.

This is business, and its good business because everyone wins.

To date, the only business rationale I have seen to architect's use of BIM are 1) because it is fun and interesting, 2) because they can claim it as a marketing differentiator, and 3) because it justifies the earlier collection of fees, which can have some positive impact on cash flow and some increase in the internal rate of return on a project.  Not enough justification if you ask me.  It needs to directly drive profitability to be viable.

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Alan Burcope AIA, MBA, LEED AP
VP Project Development
HBE Corporation
Saint Louis MO
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