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Project Delivery

Project Delivery sorted by thread
 
  Computer Flooring in restrooms...
May 28, 2012 12:37 PMBill Gilmore,...
  RE:Computer Flooring in restro...
May 29, 2012 5:57 AMMr. Thomas Mo...
  RE:Computer Flooring in restro...
May 29, 2012 12:53 PMMr. Hubert (S...
  RE:Computer Flooring in restro...
May 29, 2012 4:44 PMJesse Hopkins...
  RE:Computer Flooring in restro...
May 30, 2012 2:29 AMMark Paone, AIA
 

1.
Computer Flooring in restrooms/toilets
From: Bill Gilmore, AIA
To: Project Delivery
Posted: May 28, 2012 12:37 PM
Subject: Computer Flooring in restrooms/toilets
Message:
This message has been cross posted to the following Discussion Forums: Project Delivery and Practice Management Member Conversations .
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Bill Gilmore AIA
Architect
Bill Gilmore Architects PLLC
Eureka Springs AR

I have an American Indian Tribal client who is hiring my firm to provide a new casino, on tribal land, that has mandated me to use a computer flooring/raised sectional tile flooring system throughout the facility. My biggest concern is their insistance to use a raised computer floor in all areas of the casino, especially in the kitchen and restrooms. I have expressed strong dissaproval with that arrangement to no success except to divide my office.
I need to point to IBC or NFPA Life Safety codes that prevents, or at least allows reason to be used, to not use raised flooring in restrooms and kitchens. Any help with this dilemma is appreciated. I am in catch 22 situation: by law I am bound to comply with code and law(project is in Oklahoma) but the client is an independent and sovereign nation not regulated by state agencies that would normally be the AHJ.
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2.
RE:Computer Flooring in restrooms/toilets
From: Mr. Thomas Montero, AIA, FCSI, CDT
To: Project Delivery
Posted: May 29, 2012 5:57 AM
Subject: RE:Computer Flooring in restrooms/toilets
Message:

Bill, my suggestion would be, even though not regulated by the local jurisdiction, you might consider asking them for a formal, written response to the client's requirement.  With that, and after a discussion with your legal council, the NFPA, and the state architectural licensing bureau, have a face-to-face meeting with your client explaining the dilemma.  Let them know that in order to comply with your state licensing law, you have write them a letter informing them of the situation and that you are proceeding with their direction under protest, or whatever language your attorney suggests.  Send a copy to the licensing bureau, to the AHJ (even though they don't) and to the NFPA.  Then, proceed.

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Thomas Montero AIA, FCSI, CDT
Architect/Consultant
Sanford FL
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3.
RE:Computer Flooring in restrooms/toilets
From: Mr. Hubert (Sonny) Vinberg Jr., AIA
To: Project Delivery
Posted: May 29, 2012 12:53 PM
Subject: RE:Computer Flooring in restrooms/toilets
Message:
Hello Bill,

Having worked in the same arena, in the western region of the US, I can relate to your dilemma.  Several thoughts to maybe aid your cause:

1.  Typically, as sovereign nations, most tribal governments have reciprocal agreements with the state agencies.  Most have adopted, or agreed, in writing, to some sort of MOA or MOU with state agencies on adopting building codes, etc..  If so, a reminder to the tribal government may be helpful.  It is a sensitive issue, as the mandated flooring source may be derived from someone on the tribal council.

2.  You have other issues, besides code compliance.  The mere weight of the equipment in the commercial kitchen may negate the use of computer flooring, as they typically have design limits or weight capacities.  The mandated flooring would probably not be warrantable, as well.  You may want to demonstrate those limitations.

3.  Added cost may be another selling point, as you may be required to "beef up" the flooring to support equipment. Other points may be, added costs to prevent failures from water damage, added sumps and floor drains, more restrictive fire ratings.

Good luck.
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Sonny Vinberg AIA
Alaskan Native (Alutiiq/Aleut) Architect
Kodiak AK
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4.
RE:Computer Flooring in restrooms/toilets
From: Jesse Hopkins, AIA
To: Project Delivery
Posted: May 29, 2012 4:44 PM
Subject: RE:Computer Flooring in restrooms/toilets
Message:

With the proper underlayment, you may be able to install a sanitary flooring and base over the raised floor system.     

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Jesse Hopkins AIA
Architect
NOR-SON, Inc.
Baxter MN
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5.
RE:Computer Flooring in restrooms/toilets
From: Mark Paone, AIA
To: Project Delivery
Posted: May 30, 2012 2:29 AM
Subject: RE:Computer Flooring in restrooms/toilets
Message:

I have a different take on this.  I see this similar to my work on Department of Defense projects in other states.  The DOD accepts the State of California Architectural License but the state licensing board has no jurisdiction over me on federal projects.  

If you are working in a sovereign nation I doubt your state license comes into play.  The Indian Nation may want you to have it just like the DOD wants architects to be licensed somewhere but not necessarily in the state where the project is. 

Your state licensing board may not have dealt with the question before so they may not really know the answer without getting legal advise from the Attorney General's office.  Your own legal counsel may be able to bring your comfort level up that you are not subject to the state's oversight.

As far as the root problem of having a floor that is not cleanable in areas that require cleaning, I think this is a health issue.  There are areas of the building code here in CA that outline acceptable finishes in areas that require cleaning such as kitchens and toilet rooms.  In CA there are also requirements in the health code that restaurants follow (i.e. not the building code.) 

The AIA has recommendations on similar situations for healthcare settings.  Perhaps they also have something on toilet rooms and kitchens.

That being said, what your client is trying to achieve is understandable.  My recommendation is to find a solution that achieves what they are trying to do (access for maintenance I assume,) while maintaining a cleanable floor.  Computer floors are expensive and are not designed for wet areas.  Since you would be installing the system against the manufacturers recommendations, there would be no warranty.  In that the floor would get wet, a huge amount of maintenance on the computer floor itself would likely be required.  It is going to rust, even if parts of it are aluminum.  All of the piping will need to be supported from below instead of being hung from the structure above.  This makes the idea even more expensive and complicated to execute.

You might want to compare the cost of a small basement, accessed by a floor hatch.  It may not be significantly different in cost. This approach would probably address all of the issues.

If this were my client, I would be concerned but would take the ethical position that they are a sovereign nation and they get to decide what rules to follow.  I would require a written list of codes they want followed. Ideally this should be in the contract or an attachment to the contract. Outline a procedure that will be followed when they deviate from the codes they are telling you to follow.  (I.e. a simple letter outlining the code requirement and their acceptance of an alternative means of compliance that is written by you and countersigned by them.)

I have had this situations on DOD projects where the locals were saying that a section in a code that I was directed to follow was not applicable.  Once I asked them to document their position, their position changed.  The guys I was dealing with did not want to be accountable and I am sure would have thrown me under the bus if a problem ever came up.

Best of Luck!
Mark



 

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Mark Paone AIA
Principal
Mark J. Paone, AIA Architect
Orange CA
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