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Housing Knowledge Community

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  RE:Partner or Parasite: how do...
February 20, 2012 11:42 AMBoyce Tucker,...
  RE:Partner or Parasite: how do...
February 21, 2012 7:48 AMEdward Shanno...
  RE:Partner or Parasite: how do...
February 22, 2012 8:27 AMLes McCormick
  RE:Partner or Parasite: how do...
February 23, 2012 7:45 AMEdward Shanno...
  RE:Partner or Parasite: how do...
February 24, 2012 9:32 AMStephen Selin...
  RE:Partner or Parasite: how do...
February 27, 2012 12:21 PMMr. Daniel Al...
  RE:Partner or Parasite: how do...
February 24, 2012 3:00 PMThad Broom, AIA
  RE:Partner or Parasite: how do...
February 21, 2012 9:52 AMPeter Arsenau...
  RE:Partner or Parasite: how do...
February 22, 2012 7:48 AMRand Soellner
  RE:Partner or Parasite: how do...
February 21, 2012 10:23 AMMichael Steve...
 

1.
RE:Partner or Parasite: how do you feel about your software?
From: Boyce Tucker, AIA
To: Housing Knowledge Community
Posted: February 20, 2012 11:42 AM
Subject: RE:Partner or Parasite: how do you feel about your software?
Message:
I like this discussion. I have been with Autocad since the 80's and architectural desktop since it came out. This program is complicated, difficult to use and definitely not developed for residential projects. Does any one use Chief Architect? Would it be a good alternative for custom homes in the 9,000 sf to 12,000 sf range?

-------------------------------------------
Boyce Tucker AIA
Architect
Boyce Tucker Architect
Boerne TX
-------------------------------------------
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2.
RE:Partner or Parasite: how do you feel about your software?
From: Edward Shannon, AIA
To: Housing Knowledge Community
Posted: February 21, 2012 7:48 AM
Subject: RE:Partner or Parasite: how do you feel about your software?
Message:
If you are doing residential, besides Chief Architect, the other program you might consider is SoftPlan.  They are similar. from what I've been told, Chief is stronger in 3D presentation, SP is stronger for CD's. 

-------------------------------------------
Edward Shannon AIA
Waterloo IA
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3.
RE:Partner or Parasite: how do you feel about your software?
From: Les McCormick
To: Housing Knowledge Community
Posted: February 22, 2012 8:27 AM
Subject: RE:Partner or Parasite: how do you feel about your software?
Message:

for me this is an appropriate and timely discussion. i have used autocad for years and have always been disappointed with it for architectural use and have found the company not anywhere close to user friendly. most of my work is residential and small scale commercial/mixed use and i've been researching programs more suitable, multi-functional, BIM oriented, economical and with a user friendly product supplier. the 2 major programs that have come to the fore front are chief architect and soft plan. another designer pro + has been mentioned as well. is anyone familiar with the latter? do others agree with the previous chief architect(renderings) and soft plan(cd's) comparision?
-------------------------------------------
Les McCormick
Atelier 359
Asheville NC
-------------------------------------------






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4.
RE:Partner or Parasite: how do you feel about your software?
From: Edward Shannon, AIA
To: Housing Knowledge Community
Posted: February 23, 2012 7:45 AM
Subject: RE:Partner or Parasite: how do you feel about your software?
Message:

Here are a couple of posts from previous discussions that talk about some of my experiences with Soft Plan. Both of these responses were asked in the context of "Revit for residential projects".  My point is not necessarily to endorse SP or trash Revit, but to encourage architects - especially small residential firms - to shop around before committing to a program.  Don't just pick a program blindly because it you have been told it is the "industry leader".

 

Here's the first one....

 

I operate a one-person practice.  Seven years ago I ditched AutoCad for SoftPlan. It took me six weeks to get up and running on SP.  After six months I felt I knew the program better than Acad, which I had been using for about 10 years.

SP is relatively affordable, and comes ready to use out of the box.  The tech support (that comes with the product) is fantastic!  They have a very affordable price structure for additional seats too.

Five years ago I went back to work for a residential design/build company that had purchased Revit.  In the three years i was there, we could not get fully up and running on it.  We felt there was too much "programming" that needed to be done to get it functional for residential design.  At the time, Revit didn't even have major window mfr. libraries.  I understand they have come a long way since.  and, I applaud you small firms that have been able to implement Revit in your practices.

SP and Chief are a lot alike.  I have heard that Chief is better for 3D and SP is stronger in it's CD capacity. If you are doing single family homes, it is highly unlikely that you will need a program that is compatible with your consultants.
 
I urge and small practitioner to shop around and demo as many programs as you can.  Take into account the price structure.  Even at $2,400.00, SP is a big investment for a small firm, Revit even more so.  Don't buy a program blindly, because you have been told it is the industry leader.  Choose the program that is the best fit for you. 

 

And another one....

I am a sole practitioner doing small residential projects. Six years ago I dumped my Autocad LT and switched to Softplan. It took me about six weeks to get up and running on SP. After about 6 months of SP, I felt I knew the program better - and was more comfortable than Acad LT, which I had used for about 10 years. I personally know of three small residential firms who purchased Revit, have had it for 4 or 5 years and cannot transition over. Simply put, While Revit is a more diverse program that SP, Revit requires too much customization and is not "Residential Friendly". If you have a dedicated CAD manager, who can spend his or her days creating "families", then Revit is for you. If you're a small or sole practice, you don't want to eat up the billable hours (of your already small design fees) programming your BIM program. I can remember three years ago when Revit did not have Marvin Windows available in its model libraries, while Soft Plan, Chief, Archi-Cad, Vector works and others did. Major mfr's like Marvin come standard on SP and Chief. You can used these programs "out of the box" and customize as need be. Revit claims to be "Residential Friendly" yet the tutorial that comes with the program is a (stunning!) Eurobox home with masonry bearing walls, curtain walls, mono-pitch shed roof, etc. It is not a typical residential project that a typical residential firm would undertake, but more of a Bill Gates' guest house.

I now teach at a community college. We teach Soft Plan for Residential (during the first year) and will be teaching Revit for commercial design during the second year. Revit is an excellent program for commercial design, in my opinion.

It saddens me to see so many small firms blindly buying into Revit - because it's the "industry leader". Shop around. Look at pricing as well as customer support (SP has free telephone support during normal business hours) Pick the program that is a good fit for you



-------------------------------------------
Edward Shannon AIA
Waterloo IA
-------------------------------------------






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5.
RE:Partner or Parasite: how do you feel about your software?
From: Stephen Selin, AIA
To: Housing Knowledge Community
Posted: February 24, 2012 9:32 AM
Subject: RE:Partner or Parasite: how do you feel about your software?
Message:

There are some great points brought up here, and being a practice of two it helps to hear other voices on the subject.  We do mostly residential, and some commercial projects, and have been using Datacad for the last 20 years.  It's easy to learn, affordable (at $1295 for an initial license, $495 for additional licences and $395 for upgrades), interfaces well with Autocad and Sketchup, and is geared toward both residential and commercial architecture.  The technical support is fabulous and fast.  We've recently switched to using macs, and like many cad programs Datacad is windows based, so we have to run both operating systems thru parallels, which adds a small extra layer of complexity to our technically challenged brains.  It doesn't affect the performance as far as we can tell. We're really happy with Datacad and if we ever switched it would have to be for a darn good reason, given the downtime to learn a new program.  Running a mac based program would let us eliminate Windows, and that would be a plus, so does anyone know of good robust mac run cad software that can interface with Autocad?  A. Atkinson started another string of this conversation and mentioned Vectorworks as being able to span both operating systems.  I know a version of Autocad can run on macs now but haven't heard if it really works.  Any thoughts out there?
-------------------------------------------
Stephen Selin AIA
Selin + Selin Architecture
Shelburne VT
-------------------------------------------






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6.
RE:Partner or Parasite: how do you feel about your software?
From: Mr. Daniel Alter, AIA
To: Housing Knowledge Community
Posted: February 27, 2012 12:21 PM
Subject: RE:Partner or Parasite: how do you feel about your software?
Message:
I am a sole practitioner that has used AutoCAD LT on a MacBook Pro (via Parallels) for several years. Since Microsoft will stop supporting Windows XP as soon as this year, and since I wanted better integration of 3D capabilities, and since I wanted something with database and BIM capabilities, and since I wanted to have a Mac-based program at reasonable cost, I decided to switch to Vectorworks Architect. I am very happy with the software. It has BIM, built-in space planning tools, etc.

-------------------------------------------
Daniel Alter AIA
Daniel Alter Architect PLLC
Brooklyn NY
-------------------------------------------






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7.
RE:Partner or Parasite: how do you feel about your software?
From: Thad Broom, AIA
To: Housing Knowledge Community
Posted: February 24, 2012 3:00 PM
Subject: RE:Partner or Parasite: how do you feel about your software?
Message:
OK, let me get good word in for Revit. My projects are mostly custom residences with some commercial.

Current wisdom seems to be that BIM and Revit in particular are overkill for residential projects. Nothing is further from the truth. I began my career on the boards when " high tech" meant a Mayline parallel bar and an electric eraser.  My dream then was for a quick way to model alternate massing and roof layouts. AutoCAD speeded things up a bit but it was of little use for three dimensional modeling. I moved to Auto Architect and then Architectural Desktop. Things were certainly getting better but I had to think more like a geek than an architect. When I jumped to Revit, I found the modeler that I had been looking for as well as the documentation software that would make my life lots easier and my time more productive.

With Revit, I can quickly lay out massing alternatives on a client's site using an imported site plan or Revit mapping. I can easily perform energy analyses on alternate massing forms and use the sun path utility to select a preferred orientation and investigate passive solar strategies. What part of this is not applicable to residential architecture? I can also use massing elements to lay out conceptual space/room arrangements then quickly convert mass elements to three dimensional building components to better communicate design ideas with the client. Lastly, I can create a set of highly accurate, well detailed and fully coordinated set of construction documents.  Clients love me because I can easily express their wishes in a manner that they can readily understand. Contractors love me because I have a great set of construction documents and provide "freebie" material schedules that help with their estimating. Once again, what part of this is not applicable to residential architecture?

I admit that the price of Revit is expensive but I feel it is well worth it and my annual subscription costs are lower than the rates that I have seen quoted on this forum. In addition, I have pretty much done away with the need for Sketchup so I no longer have to upgrade that program. I have tried Archicad and found it to be a great program. I settled on Revit though because I found it to more robust and is rapidly becoming the standard for the AE world.   In fact, both my PME and structural engineers are now using Revit and I can easily link their Revit models to mine. Revit even lets me now when something in their files has changed since the last link update. Lastly, many manufacturers are now providing parametric Revit files for their products which is a real time saver.

No matter which BIM program you use, I strongly urge getting away from the hybrid 2D/3D approach and fully model any elements that are going to be viewed in 3D, sectional or elevational views as well as plan views or need to be scheduled. Yes, it takes time to get going but you will build an extensive library of parametric parts that can be used over and over and you will find more time available for actual design.

-------------------------------------------
Thad Broom AIA
Architect
Thad A. Broom AIA, P.C.
Virginia Beach VA
-------------------------------------------






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Here are a couple of posts from previous discussions that talk about some of my experiences with Soft Plan. Both of these responses were asked in the context of "Revit for residential projects".  My point is not necessarily to endorse SP or trash Revit, but to encourage architects - especially small residential firms - to shop around before committing to a program.  Don't just pick a program blindly because it you have been told it is the "industry leader".

 

Here's the first one....

 

I operate a one-person practice.  Seven years ago I ditched AutoCad for SoftPlan. It took me six weeks to get up and running on SP.  After six months I felt I knew the program better than Acad, which I had been using for about 10 years.

SP is relatively affordable, and comes ready to use out of the box.  The tech support (that comes with the product) is fantastic!  They have a very affordable price structure for additional seats too.

Five years ago I went back to work for a residential design/build company that had purchased Revit.  In the three years i was there, we could not get fully up and running on it.  We felt there was too much "programming" that needed to be done to get it functional for residential design.  At the time, Revit didn't even have major window mfr. libraries.  I understand they have come a long way since.  and, I applaud you small firms that have been able to implement Revit in your practices.

SP and Chief are a lot alike.  I have heard that Chief is better for 3D and SP is stronger in it's CD capacity. If you are doing single family homes, it is highly unlikely that you will need a program that is compatible with your consultants.
 
I urge and small practitioner to shop around and demo as many programs as you can.  Take into account the price structure.  Even at $2,400.00, SP is a big investment for a small firm, Revit even more so.  Don't buy a program blindly, because you have been told it is the industry leader.  Choose the program that is the best fit for you. 

 

And another one....

I am a sole practitioner doing small residential projects. Six years ago I dumped my Autocad LT and switched to Softplan. It took me about six weeks to get up and running on SP. After about 6 months of SP, I felt I knew the program better - and was more comfortable than Acad LT, which I had used for about 10 years. I personally know of three small residential firms who purchased Revit, have had it for 4 or 5 years and cannot transition over. Simply put, While Revit is a more diverse program that SP, Revit requires too much customization and is not "Residential Friendly". If you have a dedicated CAD manager, who can spend his or her days creating "families", then Revit is for you. If you're a small or sole practice, you don't want to eat up the billable hours (of your already small design fees) programming your BIM program. I can remember three years ago when Revit did not have Marvin Windows available in its model libraries, while Soft Plan, Chief, Archi-Cad, Vector works and others did. Major mfr's like Marvin come standard on SP and Chief. You can used these programs "out of the box" and customize as need be. Revit claims to be "Residential Friendly" yet the tutorial that comes with the program is a (stunning!) Eurobox home with masonry bearing walls, curtain walls, mono-pitch shed roof, etc. It is not a typical residential project that a typical residential firm would undertake, but more of a Bill Gates' guest house.

I now teach at a community college. We teach Soft Plan for Residential (during the first year) and will be teaching Revit for commercial design during the second year. Revit is an excellent program for commercial design, in my opinion.

It saddens me to see so many small firms blindly buying into Revit - because it's the "industry leader". Shop around. Look at pricing as well as customer support (SP has free telephone support during normal business hours) Pick the program that is a good fit for you



-------------------------------------------
Edward Shannon AIA
Waterloo IA
-------------------------------------------





-------------------------------------------
Original Message:
Sent: 02-22-2012 08:27
From: Les McCormick
Subject: Partner or Parasite: how do you feel about your software?


for me this is an appropriate and timely discussion. i have used autocad for years and have always been disappointed with it for architectural use and have found the company not anywhere close to user friendly. most of my work is residential and small scale commercial/mixed use and i've been researching programs more suitable, multi-functional, BIM oriented, economical and with a user friendly product supplier. the 2 major programs that have come to the fore front are chief architect and soft plan. another designer pro + has been mentioned as well. is anyone familiar with the latter? do others agree with the previous chief architect(renderings) and soft plan(cd's) comparision?
-------------------------------------------
Les McCormick
Atelier 359
Asheville NC
-------------------------------------------





-------------------------------------------
Original Message:
Sent: 02-21-2012 07:48
From: Edward Shannon
Subject: Partner or Parasite: how do you feel about your software?

If you are doing residential, besides Chief Architect, the other program you might consider is SoftPlan.  They are similar. from what I've been told, Chief is stronger in 3D presentation, SP is stronger for CD's. 

-------------------------------------------
Edward Shannon AIA
Waterloo IA
-------------------------------------------





-------------------------------------------
Original Message:
Sent: 02-20-2012 11:41
From: Boyce Tucker
Subject: Partner or Parasite: how do you feel about your software?

I like this discussion. I have been with Autocad since the 80's and architectural desktop since it came out. This program is complicated, difficult to use and definitely not developed for residential projects. Does any one use Chief Architect? Would it be a good alternative for custom homes in the 9,000 sf to 12,000 sf range?

-------------------------------------------
Boyce Tucker AIA
Architect
Boyce Tucker Architect
Boerne TX
-------------------------------------------



















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8.
RE:Partner or Parasite: how do you feel about your software?
From: Peter Arsenault, FAIA
To: Housing Knowledge Community
Posted: February 21, 2012 9:52 AM
Subject: RE:Partner or Parasite: how do you feel about your software?
Message:

I have been using a program called SoftPlan for the past three years and find it very easy and powerful to use for residential and light commercial projects. It is actually designed specifically for 3-D residential construction and offers a variety of pre-established and customizable construction assemblies for walls, roofs, and doors. I looked at Chief Architect but thought it was too focused on interiors and furnishings. I have had many years of experience managing people and projects using AutoCad and everyone complained about the difficulties and limitations. Revit is a great improvement, but frankly, a little bit of overkill for a small practice doing residential work. I do like Softplan's ability to import and export .dwg and .dxf files so I have usually been able to coordinate with others using AutoCad relatively painlessly. And the Softplan 3-D modeling is built in which is pretty effective (assuming you have the right hardware and graphics card to run it) and is generated automatically within the program BIM style. The program isn't perfect, and I'm sure I haven't taken full advantage of learning all of the possibilities and options, but I have been extremely productive with it and generally very happy with the results. 

-------------------------------------------
Peter Arsenault FAIA
Peter J. Arsenault, Architect
Manlius NY
-------------------------------------------






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9.
RE:Partner or Parasite: how do you feel about your software?
From: Rand Soellner
To: Housing Knowledge Community
Posted: February 22, 2012 7:48 AM
Subject: RE:Partner or Parasite: how do you feel about your software?
Message:

Hello fellow architects and searchers for the best software for our residential projects.
Yes, it is quite a journey to find the best fit.
During the last 3 months, I have been researching/using SketchUp Pro 8 + Layout 3, Chief Architect Premier X4, and am just getting into Archicad 2012 Start.

SketchUp, I found is a nifty but primitive Google program that allows you to draw anything in 3D.  Unfortunately, it tries to be everything to everybody and in so doing does Not have all the predefined menus and tools that we as architect would want to properly design and document our projects.  Could the job be done in SketchUp + Layout?  Yes.  however, I am sure that there would be a huge problem with unintended "stickyness" between floor levels and much frustration at the lack of architectural parameters.

Chief Architect is worth a strong look.  It was created specifically for architects, builders and designers to create "mainstream" houses.  I have been focused on this for the last week and actually had a conversation with one of the main programmers/support staff last night.  This program will take some heavy-duty tweaking with extruded polyline custom shapes for most of us to turn into a stronger custom architecture tool.  otherwise you will be stuck with conventional picket railings and conventional fascias and the like, which are the program's default settings.  If your practice is something  that is not looking to do anything other than modest mainstream designs, then this software can work for you right out of the box.  if your practice is geared to something different, then you are going to need some in-house 3D drawing capability to create custom shapes that you then manipulate in 3D and build in the software to create your unique designs.  This program is more dialog box oriented (the programmer told me there are perhaps 10,000 dialog boxes) than drawing oriented in my opinion.  In other words, you will probably spend more time with dialog box settings with this software that with actual drawing.  However, once you do draw walls and roofs and foundations, amazing things will be working automatically in the background to create the 3D model.  The 3D imagery is very effective, and they even have a ray tracing level of imagery that makes this software near photo-realistic.  The big frustration you will experience with this package is with the custom touches we as architects like to make to conventional roof edges and other aspects that might be your trademark.  And you will have to invest considerable effort to create these things in 3D to evolve the software to correctly present your unique style.  I am intrigued with Chief Architect.  I am also concerned that I could end up spending much of my time setting up dialog boxes rather than drawing.  Hmmm.  Still thinking about this one.

Archicad: I actually owned this software in about 1989.  I liked it, but had no training, which resulted in me messing around with it for about 3 months, then abandoning it for AutoCad, largely because the commercial clients I dealt with back then insisted that I use AutoCad.  So that was that.  I have begun a new look at Graphisoft's ArchiCad 2012 Start, which might work for sole practitioners who do Not need to have several people working on one design simultaneously.  Also if you do not need curtainwalls.  Otherwise, the regional support person for Graphisoft in the SE USA has said that this slightly reduced functionality could work well for architects focused on residential and light commercial.  The license cost is substantially less than the networked version: $1,995.  This SE support/sales person also said that he has not heard of any yearly upgrade requirement and that he will support even older versions indefinitely.  He mentioned several architects who use it.  I called them and talked to their cad staff.  They said that even though they had 3-year old versions of the software, that the support person was still being responsive to their questions.  I am sure this must very from region to region and who the people are supporting you.  I do not yet have a new working knowledge of this software.  I have heard from others who do, that they like it.  We will see.

I hope that this review might be of some assistance to others going through this type of research.  I have not yet made my decision, except to rule Out Revit and AutoCad.  I can't afford them, do not have the smarts or time for their steep learning curve, and do not want to experience the horror of yearly demands for upgrades/support demands that I have heard from other architects.

-------------------------------------------
Rand Soellner AIA
Architect/Owner/Principal
Rand Soellner Architect
Cashiers NC
-------------------------------------------






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10.
RE:Partner or Parasite: how do you feel about your software?
From: Michael Stevens, AIA
To: Housing Knowledge Community
Posted: February 21, 2012 10:23 AM
Subject: RE:Partner or Parasite: how do you feel about your software?
Message:
We use Autocad mostly, Microstation (2 of us), and I use Chief Arch for alot of prelim design. Chief is excellent for quick plans, marketing, and client presentation on sf homes, small multifam, office layouts, etc. we then convert it over and use the bigger CAD engines to finish for CD's. I abhor Autocad for a variety of reasons.
our CAD work on mulitfam highrise is/was fine - lost our major client to a competitor who, besides being very well politically connected, and a decent designer, sold his firm's ability with BIM/revit. we have not made the investment, as we didn't believe it was worth the time/$$, when we believed our client(s) couldn't benefit from it. oops. Sim tale from a good friend's practice, too.
still don't for most of our work, but in hindsight it may be time to train/hire staff for BIM/Revit.

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Michael Stevens AIA
SBE
Herndon VA
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